www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization How to Get People to Attend Vespers/Orthros?

Excellent idea - that is what we did in the homes of interested families. That is how it is started in many mission Orthodox communities as well. It is quite simple to make the modifications to do a Reader's version of most services from the Horologion.

I've also been to Vespers at St. Theodosius church in Cleveland. It is a very family-oriented parish that offers religious education classes to both children & adults on Saturday afternoons before Vespers. In addition, there is a potluck dinner preceding Vespers.

-Wolfgang

"It truly is fascinating. Because my whole life, all I have been told is that priests are now covering more than one parish and so they can't have Vespers and the ones that are full time at just one parish don't have a cantor that knows the music for the service.

The arguments fall completely apart at many of our parishes, case in point, the St. Johns Cathedral in Munhall, PA. Full time priest, more than qualified cantor who knows the music. Yet, what takes place, Saturday evening liturgy, and no Vespers at all. Also, the schedules that I've seen do not show Matins at all either. I could go on about the fact that the Great Canon of St. Andrew was not celebrated during the first week of the Great Fast as well. Yet, I guarantee that at orthodox parishes in the Munhall area that one could find a Vespers service, Matins, Great Canon, etc.

Where there's a will there's a way.

It's inexcusable, period."

Actually Fr. Simeon has another parish and Professor J. Michael has the Seminary.

How about some facts rather than conjecture:

The Archeparchy of Pittsburgh has:
80 Parishes
6 missions
3 Monasteries
1 Seminary

43 active priests of her own sefving as pastors. Of the 43, 17 have 2 parishes, 4 have 3 parishes. Of the 43, several are past the age of 75 meaning they can retire when they want.
6 active priests of other dioceses serving as pastors of 7 parishes/missions
7 active priests of religious orders serving as pastors of 8 parishes/missions

If parishes want to have Vespers/Matins it is probably going to have to be at the initiative of the laity.

Father Deacon,

I agree with you on all but one count. The parish used as an example has Saturday evening liturgy. The priest and cantor must both be present for this. Vespers wouldn't create any greater burden on their time, except for the investment in learning them. Hopefully a priest prayers it privately at least some of the time. We are all aware of the Professor's talent. Therefore, the aging rate of the overtaxed clergy does not explain this particular parish's lack of vespers.

Horse Hockey! Why does every OCA parish, (and the other Orthodox jurisdictions for that matter), in the Cleveland area have Vespers every Saturday night, when only ONE! BCC parish that I know of has it? The Vespers is always held even if practically no one is in the church! ( I know! My parish had four people besides myself last week). This is just another example of Latinization! Who needs Vespers, Great Canon, etc...

For those who enjoy cynicism - perhaps one might consider an amazing coincidence: the services which survive are those for which someone pays a stipend!

Fr. Serge

I had a pastor who vehemently refused to serve Vespers. On the other hand, he had no qualms about introducing and serving a Saturday evening Divine Liturgy (with Sunday propers, of course).

I think no further comment about this situation in needed...

For the BCC, I think the time has come to -- gasp -- close churches. There are too many. Pittsburgh alone has 6 and they are divided among 4 priests. Close them ALL except for St. John Chrysostom in Greenfield/The Run, which is clearly the biggest (and by far the prettiest) and assign one good, full-time pastor.

My (ACROD) parish has Vespers every Saturday night and Matins every Sunday morning before Liturgy. Neither service usually has more than 5 people there, but they're held no matter what, for the most part. Incidentally, Father has a Moleben to St. Nectarios 1st Wednesday of each month along with anointing, and about 30+ people show up each time. I've got a high school-aged friend who asks me to go every month, and he's not even Orthodox (he's BC).

Maybe it's because the people get anointed or something? I've heard that folks tend to favor Liturgy because they GET something (Holy Communion). In addition, maybe the BCC can start telling folks that Vespers counts towards their "Sunday obligation", as I've been told by some priests?

Father Deacon,

Somehow they have time to do Saturday evening liturgy, that is a fact.

They should be doing Vespers, that is a fact.

Excusing the absence of these is conjecture.


Monomakh

Domilsean,

You've made a good point. Between priests and stipends on the one hand, and people expecting 'something' is they go to church (i.e., only real services include the Eucharist, leading to things like a Requiem Liturgy as opposed to a pokhoron) it's hard to convince people to attend Vespers, Orthros, or any other such service.

A lot depends on education. Sadly, too many people like things just the way they are...

This certainly brings a few points to my mind.

I have now attended Vespers on 7 occasions - 3 in English and Ukrainian [ in Lourdes ] and 2 in Greek ,1 in Church Slavonic and 1 in Romanian .

I can't honestly say that I am comfortable with the Service yet - which brings me to my thought.

We are only comfortable with that which is familiar - so the challenge really is - how to make us familiar and comfortable with the Service ?

It has to be at the same time week in and week out and you have to have a few people to really learn it - so they can teach the Service to others slowly and patiently .

Once you are familiar and comfortable then you can introduce more folk to the joys of Vespers.

Anhelyna-- who really stumbles through Vespers

Unfortunately, most of the arguments I've heard in both Orthodoxy and Byzantine Catholicism trying to encourage Vespers and Matins focus on their catechetical aspect - e.g. at Vespers we hear more theology, learn the meaning of feasts, etc. - and that it is good for us. But on another thread right now, we're hearing that this is a BAD thing to emphasize, or at least misdirected (i.e. pastoral or "people-centered" liturgy rather than God-centered liturgy).

On the other hand, "because we ought to" sounds a bit close to the "obligation to attend Mass" that has been decried here as legalism.

I have my own response to this, but before sharing it, I'd like to ask:

If a fellow parishioner asked you, "WHY should be bother having Vespers?", how would YOU answer?

Fair warning: an article on the subject is going onto the MCI website soon, precisely to provide reasons for having parochial Vespers and Matins, so I may borrow the best arguments we can arrive at!

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Jeff, to address your question:

We should bother having vespers because they're part of the life of the Church and we Christians should want to be a part of that. Vespers and Orthros help us more fully and prayerfully experience the life of the Church. I'd also say, come with me and see. It's a beautiful service!

Now I realize that I'm a liturgy nerd and I'd go to every single liturgy every single day if I could and even maybe give up the drink (ok, I'm pushing it now...), and most folks aren't like me at all.

I learned something way back in RC seminary that I never forgot: Never wear a watch to church. You're on God's time, not man's. For the most part, I've stuck to this. It allows me to immerse myself more fully into the liturgy if I don't worry about time.

But I know that folks today hate to give up any extra time at all for the liturgies and services. Why are churches empty on HOLY DAYS? What, you're too busy on a Wednesday night to go to Vespers for the ASCENSION? Oh, I think American Idol was on.

I see what you mean here, Jeff.

I think that there is a tendency to assert a catechetical functionality for liturgical prayer, where, in fact, there is no such functionality.

Six, eight, maybe ten years ago now, I took this kind of proposition to the ustav list based upon my understanding of lex orandi, lex credendi. I was prepared to wax eloquent about the catechetical nature of liturgical prayer.

Well...did I ever get my little wings clipped in a hurry!!!

Go and sit down, dumb kid, and pay attention to your elders!!

And I've taken those good lessons to heart.

The purpose of liturgy, that can be in some way confused with a catechical function, is that liturgy carries us spiritually into a deeper penetration of the mysteries of the faith.

In liturgical prayer we open our hearts, and offer ourselves as vessels to be filled, to be illuminated, by the power of the Holy Spirit. That filling of the intellect and will with the Light of Life is more of a mystagogy than it is a catechesis.

In very mundane and practical terms that is part of the reason that the laity may teach, but only clergy may preach.

This, I think, might be a good place to begin to do the research for such a position paper as the one you suggest here on the public work of the universal Church.

M.

Monomakh,

Currently we live under a canon law that obligates our people to attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday, that is a fact. To help with that obligation Saturday Evening Liturgies are allowed under canon law, that is a fact. Priests are obligated to help the people fufill their obligation, that is a fact. Until it is adopted in particular law, Vepsers and Matins do not fulfill that obligation, that is a fact.

If one wants to see Vespers and Matins celebrated, I suggest the people gain the priest's permission to perform them as reader's services before Liturgy. If people start doing these services themselves I think it would go along way toward encouraging priests to offer them and the bishops adopting the allowance of fulfilling one's obligation with these services.

Complaining that the services aren't done while showing a complete lack of sympathy for the overworked priests isn't going to win any over. In fact your negativity makes the job that much harder for anyone trying to introduce these services as they are going to meet opposition because of the poor attitude you display.

However, you probably shouldn't worry to much because since the median age of our priests is somehwere in the upper 60s, it will be soon enough that Vespers/Matins reader's servies and Typica with Communion are all that is able to be offered in many places. Then you can complain about how Liturgy isn't offered anymore.

Fr. Deacon Lance