www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Greek-catholic church in Oleszyce in ruins

One of the numerous horrors of all this is that the Polish hierarchy was at least somewhat willing to obtain bi-ritual faculties for such of our priests as were still in Poland, and let them serve the Roman Mass in this or that RC parish - on condition that this was far, far away from the priest's wife and children.

And here I was, foolishly thinking that the Catholic Church opposed the break-up of Christian marriages!

Fr. Serge

Slava Isusu Khrestu

Well put!

I wonder what the Orthodox world must think of union with such a benevolent hierarchy as in Poland?

Z Bohom
Nycholaij

The fact that the Orthodox Church of Poland exists tells you enough, considering that they are made up mainly of the descendents of former Greek-Catholics. But before we play "bad evil Poles and poor oppressed Easterners" one should remember that the Latin Church was very much oppressed by the Russians while they ruled Poland during the 19th century. The Russians even attempted to impose Eastern Orthodox customs and language on the Latins (a perfect example of what goes around come around), but to no success.

Amen.

I think.

Slava Isusu Khrestu ,
now we are not opressed and are not strangers in our own land as centuries before

This seems interesting:


Language? The only Eastern Orthodox language (meaning a language primarily used by the Eastern Orthodox Church and associated with that Church) that I can think of off-hand is Church-Slavonic. Did the Russians really try to make the Poles speak Church-Slavonic? There are a few - very few - Russians and others who genuinely can speak Church-Slavonic and could probably produce a "modern" variety of that lovely language in which one could communicate on a day-to-day basis, but it would be quite a tour de force, not unlike the modern-day revival of Cornish, or even J. R. R. Tolkien's invented languages.

But surprising things are possible - there are some societies of people who speak conversational Latin, for example, and no doubt there are still Greeks who prefer to speak katharevousa and raise their children to speak katharevousa too.

Fr. Serge

As for the Church's involvement in Latin America, it usually has been the State that has interfered with the Church, as it has been so since the Wars of Liberation were fought. None of the leaders of the Liberators were devout Catholics.

Fr. Serge,

My paternal great grandfather left partitioned Poland in the early 20th century in part because he was tired of Tsarist Russia and its efforts to turn part of Poland into Russia. While I don't know anything about attempts to make Poles use Church Slavonic, Russia did work to stamp out Polish culture, language and religion.

To all:

All of this is a circular argument. Poles oppressed Ukranians, Poles attacked Moscow, Russia partitioned Poland, Russia left Poland, then attacked again after WWI, the Communists deported Ukranians in Poland, and it goes on and on.

Most of us arguing over it don't live in Russia or Ukraine or Poland now.

Communism did more damage to the Orthodox and Catholic Churches than we did to each other. The Czech Republic is virtually agnostic/atheist today. The Communists suppressed churches and sent priests, nuns and bishops off to gulags and concentration camps.

Is there a church in ruins? Are we going to point fingers and blame, like most US politicians do, rather than build the Church?

Secularism and radical Islam are the threats of today. Yet, many on this board like to continue to rehash old battles. It's so typical of Slavs,
regardless of religion or lack thereof.

Not being a Slav at all, I'm not denying that when people got the chance they were abusive of each other - and you should be offering fervent prayers of thanks that your great-grandfather got out while the getting was good.

All that I was doing was gently expressing some amusement at the notion that anybody could impose an "Eastern Orthodox language", since no such language really exists.

Now, back to Lord of the Rings!

Fr. Serge

Slava Isusu Khrestu

Dear Mr Clean

I must agree with you about those Slavs.

We should thank the powers that be
that Greece and Turkey get along...
that France and England get along....
that Northern Ireland and England get along...
that Germany and France get along....
that the USA and France get along, now who created the term "freedom fries and freedom toast"....
that Pakistan and India get along.

You are right Mr. Clean it's only those Slavs?

Z Bohom
Nycholaij

Yeah they wanted to turn the Polish religion into a Russian one which meant Church Slavonic as a lturgical language, it was not successful and I suspect only a few, if any, masses were said in Church Slavonic - which is not that radical as far as liturgics are concerned since the Tridentine mass (the so called "gothic mass") in Croatia, as I am sure you know Father, was said in Church Slavonic (btw this is all according to the Polish history section of a John Paul II biograhy I have).

edit: I think it was also pretty bad religion wise for the part of Poland under the Prussians, but I think the Germans let us have a tad bit more religous freedom than the Russians.

Actually there are some historians who assert that many centuries ago the Roman Mass of the time was in fact said in Church Slavonic in Poland. If the Russian Empire was trying to revive this practice in nineteenth-century Poland, I would enjoy knowing more about it. Have you any further information?

As for the Germans, it might depend on what period you have in mind.

Fr. Serge

Yep the same book which talks about Russians imposing Church Slavonic also mentions that Slavonic was the liturgical language in ancient Poland - the book is brief on both subjects but maybe it has some "further reading" suggestions in the back or something - the book is at my dad's house, whom I am supposed to visit anyways today so I will grab it when I'm there - I'll pm you of my findings .

As for the Prussians I was refering to the partition era (1800s)

Different nations, different people.

The involvement of the clergy (most notably Jesuits and Maryknolls) in the revolutionary movements is well documented ( Frs. Cardenal, Arguello, Paralles, etc) as it is in the loyalist movements (generations before Pinochet). Such as Fr. Escoto who was Ortega's foreign minister - and there are other examples.

The fact is the Church did involve herself in the polemic for both loyalists and revolutionaries, and not just in Nicaragua - my point was made to respond to an earlier comment that the West has somehow risen above polemic.

Slava Isusu Khrestu

Mr Clean

Thank you for your reply and answer.

Yes, thank you for you help me to answer your own statement.

Initially, I was at a lost but thought of something I read many years ago. In the book "As Bread that is Broken" by Father Peter van Breemen S.J. he writes a simple line which uses one of your own words.

You say, "Different nations, different people." and Fr. Breemen say "We think that we are different but we are more alike than different for we are human".

But, my pain is your use of a generalization, "It's so typical of Slavs". Generalizations are dangerous and hurtful. It is hurtful for how often have we heard:
.....like a typical Jew
.....it's just like those Indians
.....typical, just like a woman
.....typical Black attitude
.....what more do you expect from "those people
.....typical, what more would you expect

As a child I remember "sticks and stones can hurt my bones but calling names can't hurt me" Oh, not completely true, you see words can hurt and really hurt.

From your profile, I see that you are by far a highly educated man and I bow to your knowledge.

In truth I say
Z BOHOM (Go) with God
Nycholaij