The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
HopefulOlivia, Quid Est Veritas, Frank O, BC LV, returningtoaxum
6,178 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (1 invisible), 507 guests, and 130 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,526
Posts417,646
Members6,178
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 9 10
#239787 06/14/07 01:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
Member
Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
Here is something that speaks volumes to me.

Borrowing from Fr Serge�s excellent book regarding the prayer which the priest says following the Anaphora, I offer a comparison between our reformed Liturgy and the Russian Church Abroad:

The Russian Church Abroad:

Unto thee we offer our whole life and hope, O Master, Lover of mankind; and we ask thee, and pray thee, and supplicate thee: vouchsafe us to partake of thy heavenly and dread Mysteries of this holy and spiritual table, with a pure conscience, unto remission of sins, unto pardon of offences, unto communion of Thy Holy Spirit, unto inheritance of the kingdom of heaven, unto boldness towards thee; not unto judgement nor unto condemnation.


The RDL:

To you, O Master who love us all, we commit our whole life and hope, and we implore, pray, and entreat you: make us worthy to partake with a clear conscience of your heavenly and awesome mysteries from this sacred and spiritual table. May they bring about the remission of sins, the pardon of transgressions, the communion of the Holy Spirit, the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven, confidence in you, not judgement or condemnation.


One of these prayers feels anciently connected to the Church Fathers, traditional and sacred.

The other feels neutralized, modernized, and generic.

Like Fr Serge, I am brought to the brink of despair.

Last edited by Recluse; 06/14/07 01:34 PM.
Recluse #239790 06/14/07 01:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
I don't understand the first one. What language is that again?

The second one I can understand and it makes sense to me. Taking into consideration, from independent experts I have spoken with, the use of "us" and "mankind" is not inclusive but a deficiency or difference in the Greek language. I am not offended by its use.

So, the second one "feels" more ancient for me because I understand it. mad

Now, the music... Oh my, that is a whole another story.

Last edited by Ray S.; 06/14/07 01:56 PM.
Recluse #239791 06/14/07 01:59 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 487
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 487
Recluse,

if you really want to risk being brought past the brink of despair, compare the RDL to the liturgy that ROCOR celebrates, including the rubrics. Compare the services that they provide (vespers, matins, Canon of St. Andrew, etc.). Compare the adherence to fasting and confession.

Secret Squirrel was correct in the thread where it asked is this is all that is different in the RDL is inclusive language. And of course it isn't all inclusive language, inclusive language is just a small part of it.

btw, ROCOR didn't make all the differences up. We and other jurisdictions have in almost every case that I know of been the ones revising and changing. People can say what they want about ROCOR, what they cannot say is that they have given in to securlarism and modern day fads.

Alright, now I've depressed and despaired myself.


Monomakh

Monomakh #239794 06/14/07 02:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
Member
Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
BTW--How did we end up with the word "AWESOME"? frown

Ray S. #239795 06/14/07 02:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,177
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,177
Ray,

'Thee' and 'Thou' too foreign for you? Does is help?

Unto you we offer our whole life and hope, O Master, Lover of mankind; and we ask you, and pray you, and beseech you: grant us to partake of your heavenly and dread Mysteries of this holy and spiritual table, with a pure conscience, unto remission of sins, unto pardon of offences, unto communion of Your Holy Spirit, unto inheritance of the kingdom of heaven, unto boldness towards you; not unto judgement nor unto condemnation.

If that still doesn't look like English to you...

KO63AP #239806 06/14/07 02:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,177
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,177
Here are a few more translations of the said prayer:

Quote
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain, 1995
To you, Master, Lover of mankind, we entrust our whole life and our hope, and we entreat, pray and implore you: count us worthy to partake of your heavenly and awesome Mysteries at this sacred and spiritual Table with a pure conscience, for forgiveness of sins and pardon of offences, for communion of the Holy Spirit, for inheritance of the Kingdom of heaven and for boldness before you; not for judgement or condemnation.


Quote
UGCC 'Synodal' translation, 1988
We place before You our whole life and hope, O loving Master; and we ask, we pray and we entreat You: Make us worthy to partake with a pure conscience of Your awesome and heavenly Mysteries at this sacred and spiritual table, for forgiveness of since, for the pardon of offenses, for fellowship of the Holy Spirit, for the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven, for confidence before You, and not for judgement or condemnation.


Quote
UGCC Eparchy of Parma, 1996
Before you, O kind and loving Master, we place our whole life and hope, and we pray, beg and beseech you: make us worthy to partake of your awesome and heavenly Mysteries at this sacred and spiritual table with a clean conscience, for the forgiveness of sins, pardon of offenses, fellowship with the Holy Spirit, inheritance of the heavenly kingdom, confidence before you not for judgement or condemnation.


KO63AP #239811 06/14/07 03:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
BTW, my mad smiley faced was placed on accident. Too late to edit it. Oh well...

Ray S. #239812 06/14/07 03:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Monomakh,

Being FAR from an expert in the Liturgy. When comparing the Liturgies of ROCOR and the Ruthenian Churches don't you need to keep in mind that the Ruthenian Churches have a more "ancient" tradition?

ROCOR is the product of Nikia (spelling) reforms where as the Carptho-Rusyn Church was not.

Do I have my facts correct?


KO63AP #239813 06/14/07 03:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
The "unto" sounds foreign as well.

Ray S. #239818 06/14/07 04:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,595
Likes: 1
O
Member
Member
O Offline
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,595
Likes: 1
For goodness sake - Ray - did you ever look at Shakespeare in School - or Chaucer ?

Ray S. #239820 06/14/07 04:11 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 487
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 487
Originally Posted by Ray S.
Monomakh,

Being FAR from an expert in the Liturgy. When comparing the Liturgies of ROCOR and the Ruthenian Churches don't you need to keep in mind that the Ruthenian Churches have a more "ancient" tradition?

ROCOR is the product of Nikia (spelling) reforms where as the Carptho-Rusyn Church was not.

Do I have my facts correct?

I think your question would make a good topic in a forum outside the RDL.

It would be even more interesting to compare what our ancient traditions were to the RDL. The rubrics alone might be an eye opening experience. Is your Slavonic better than your old English biggrin

Monomakh

Ray S. #239822 06/14/07 04:15 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,399
Likes: 33
ajk Offline
Member
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,399
Likes: 33
Originally Posted by Ray S.
... the Ruthenian Churches have a more "ancient" tradition? ... Do I have my facts correct?

So we have been told and taught:

Quote
In the first place, the existence of a special Ruthenian Recension has been ascertained older than that which is commonly called the vulgate, because it has not been corrected as this on the Greek Editions printed at the beginning of the seventeenth century. The Ruthenian Recension, then, inasmuch as it is concordant with older texts, deserves to be preferred.

-- EUGENE CARD. TISSERANT
CIRCULAR OF THE SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE ORIENTAL CHURCH
TO RUTHENIAN ORDINARIES, Prot. N.: 1219/28, Rome, September 10, 1941
The Ordo, xi.
http://www.patronagechurch.com/Ordo-English-1955/htm/xi.htm


This raises the question: why then are there so many departures from the recension, even in what remains of it, in the abridgment that is the RDL?

Consider this also from Fr. David Petras:

Quote
The Archbishop of Lviv, the great Andrew Szeptytsky (1902-1944) became dissatisfied with this latinized Liturgicon and wanted to reform it once again, this time according to true Byzantine principles. Since the earlier reformers, mentioned above, had just achieved their objective of creating a hybrid ritual different from the Orthodox, they were not too receptive to Metropolitan Sheptytsky�s proposals. Again, the story is quite complicated, but it led to a split in policy between Metropolitan Andrew and his suffragan bishops. The split was irreconcilable, so the whole issue was turned over to the new Congregation for Eastern Church, established by Pope Benedict XV in 1917. This office undertook the process of reform, of returning the Ruthenian ritual back to its traditional roots, and to guide the process, relied on the research and advice of Archbishop Andrew�s friend, Father Cyril Korolevsky. (He was actually a Frenchman, Jean-Fran�ois Charon, who changed his name when he joined the Ruthenian Church.) His work was a true reform, returning the rite to its more authentic Eastern form. This was difficult to do, since the Liturgy had been modified for almost three centuries. He used the traditional texts of the Ruthenian Church where there was a unanimous tradition and followed the usage of the Great Russian Church where there were discrepancies, since his goal was to return to the universal Slavonic standards. This work was completed in 1941, and it was a true reform - the restoration of the Liturgy according to its Eastern form. After the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the Oriental Congregation also produced the Liturgies of St. Basil the Great and the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts, along with an Epistle and a Gospel book, a small Books of Needs (containing the sacramental mysteries, blessing and consecrations, the Book of Hours for the Divine Praises and - in 1973 - an Archieraticon, the book of the bishop�s rites. This conscious decision to restore the Liturgy was followed up by Rome in the solemn decrees of Vatican II, then in the Canon Law promulgated for the Eastern Churches, and most recently in the Liturgical Instruction of the Sacred Congregation for the Eastern Churches of January 6, 1996.

It was not followed up properly in the Ruthenian Church, however. The work came to fruition, unfortunately, during the Second World War, and the churches in Europe were suffering. When the Communists came to dominate Eastern Europe, our Churches there came under persecution, were disestablished and had to go underground. In our own Church in America, Bishop Basil Takach was very sick and died in 1948. Bishop Daniel Ivancho was prepared to introduce the reformed Liturgicon, but was removed from office for other reasons. His successor, Bishop Nicholas Elko was unfortunately opposed to the reform, and his successor, Archbishop Stephen Kocisko, was very cautious about introducing any change. Actually a faithful translation of the 1941 Ruthenian Liturgicon was made by Bishop Elko, but he distributed along with it instructions for the celebration of the Liturgy that reverted to the 1905 latinized Liturgicon. Everything was put on hold for thirty years. Bishop Emil Mihalik of Parma was the first to promulgate the reformed Liturgy - albeit it in a pastoral format. There was opposition from the other eparchies, and Bishop Emil�s promulgation had a rough road to follow. Bishop Andrew Pataki followed with another promulgation in 1986, again in a pastoral format, which was accepted by the Eparchy of Van Nuys, and then by the Eparch of Passaic in 1996, when Bishop Andrew was transferred there. I will return to these shortly. Finally, when Judson Procyk became Metropolitan in 1995, his desire was for the true reform that had been prepared for many generations. To this end, he established a Liturgy Commission that was charged with making a translation of our liturgical books that would fulfill the commission of our Church to be faithful to its tradition. This would be a true reform, because it would fulfill the gospel of our Lord as passed on through tradition, as the Decree on Eastern Churches said, �All members of the Eastern Churches should be firmly convinced that they can and ought always preserve their own legtimate liturgical rites and ways of life, and that changes are to be introduced only to forward their own organic development. They themselves are to carry our all these prescriptions with the greatest fidelity. (� 6)�

This is where we are now [ajk added: now = 12-AUG-2006].

http://www.davidpetras.com/download...20Byzantine%20Church%20August%202006.doc

Dn. Anthony

Last edited by ajk; 06/14/07 04:20 PM.
Ray S. #239824 06/14/07 04:26 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,399
Likes: 33
ajk Offline
Member
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,399
Likes: 33
Originally Posted by Ray S.
Taking into consideration, from independent experts I have spoken with, the use of "us" and "mankind" is not inclusive but a deficiency or difference in the Greek language. I am not offended by its use.

Sorry, I don't understand what this is saying; please explain further. Thanks.

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Quote
For goodness sake - Ray - did you ever look at Shakespeare in School - or Chaucer ?

I fell asleep during those classes. frown

ajk #239827 06/14/07 04:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
I will do a search later for an old post of mine. I have an expert in ancient Greek in my family. He is a Protestant. I asked him to look into the "inclusive" language issue a long time ago.


Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 9 10

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0