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Here is something that speaks volumes to me.
Borrowing from Fr Serge�s excellent book regarding the prayer which the priest says following the Anaphora, I offer a comparison between our reformed Liturgy and the Russian Church Abroad:
The Russian Church Abroad:
Unto thee we offer our whole life and hope, O Master, Lover of mankind; and we ask thee, and pray thee, and supplicate thee: vouchsafe us to partake of thy heavenly and dread Mysteries of this holy and spiritual table, with a pure conscience, unto remission of sins, unto pardon of offences, unto communion of Thy Holy Spirit, unto inheritance of the kingdom of heaven, unto boldness towards thee; not unto judgement nor unto condemnation.
The RDL:
To you, O Master who love us all, we commit our whole life and hope, and we implore, pray, and entreat you: make us worthy to partake with a clear conscience of your heavenly and awesome mysteries from this sacred and spiritual table. May they bring about the remission of sins, the pardon of transgressions, the communion of the Holy Spirit, the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven, confidence in you, not judgement or condemnation.
One of these prayers feels anciently connected to the Church Fathers, traditional and sacred.
The other feels neutralized, modernized, and generic.
Like Fr Serge, I am brought to the brink of despair.
Last edited by Recluse; 06/14/07 01:34 PM.
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I don't understand the first one. What language is that again? The second one I can understand and it makes sense to me. Taking into consideration, from independent experts I have spoken with, the use of "us" and "mankind" is not inclusive but a deficiency or difference in the Greek language. I am not offended by its use. So, the second one "feels" more ancient for me because I understand it.  Now, the music... Oh my, that is a whole another story.
Last edited by Ray S.; 06/14/07 01:56 PM.
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Recluse,
if you really want to risk being brought past the brink of despair, compare the RDL to the liturgy that ROCOR celebrates, including the rubrics. Compare the services that they provide (vespers, matins, Canon of St. Andrew, etc.). Compare the adherence to fasting and confession.
Secret Squirrel was correct in the thread where it asked is this is all that is different in the RDL is inclusive language. And of course it isn't all inclusive language, inclusive language is just a small part of it.
btw, ROCOR didn't make all the differences up. We and other jurisdictions have in almost every case that I know of been the ones revising and changing. People can say what they want about ROCOR, what they cannot say is that they have given in to securlarism and modern day fads.
Alright, now I've depressed and despaired myself.
Monomakh
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BTW--How did we end up with the word "AWESOME"? 
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Ray,
'Thee' and 'Thou' too foreign for you? Does is help?
Unto you we offer our whole life and hope, O Master, Lover of mankind; and we ask you, and pray you, and beseech you: grant us to partake of your heavenly and dread Mysteries of this holy and spiritual table, with a pure conscience, unto remission of sins, unto pardon of offences, unto communion of Your Holy Spirit, unto inheritance of the kingdom of heaven, unto boldness towards you; not unto judgement nor unto condemnation.
If that still doesn't look like English to you...
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Here are a few more translations of the said prayer: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain, 1995 To you, Master, Lover of mankind, we entrust our whole life and our hope, and we entreat, pray and implore you: count us worthy to partake of your heavenly and awesome Mysteries at this sacred and spiritual Table with a pure conscience, for forgiveness of sins and pardon of offences, for communion of the Holy Spirit, for inheritance of the Kingdom of heaven and for boldness before you; not for judgement or condemnation. UGCC 'Synodal' translation, 1988 We place before You our whole life and hope, O loving Master; and we ask, we pray and we entreat You: Make us worthy to partake with a pure conscience of Your awesome and heavenly Mysteries at this sacred and spiritual table, for forgiveness of since, for the pardon of offenses, for fellowship of the Holy Spirit, for the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven, for confidence before You, and not for judgement or condemnation. UGCC Eparchy of Parma, 1996 Before you, O kind and loving Master, we place our whole life and hope, and we pray, beg and beseech you: make us worthy to partake of your awesome and heavenly Mysteries at this sacred and spiritual table with a clean conscience, for the forgiveness of sins, pardon of offenses, fellowship with the Holy Spirit, inheritance of the heavenly kingdom, confidence before you not for judgement or condemnation.
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BTW, my mad smiley faced was placed on accident. Too late to edit it. Oh well...
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Monomakh,
Being FAR from an expert in the Liturgy. When comparing the Liturgies of ROCOR and the Ruthenian Churches don't you need to keep in mind that the Ruthenian Churches have a more "ancient" tradition?
ROCOR is the product of Nikia (spelling) reforms where as the Carptho-Rusyn Church was not.
Do I have my facts correct?
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The "unto" sounds foreign as well.
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For goodness sake - Ray - did you ever look at Shakespeare in School - or Chaucer ?
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Monomakh,
Being FAR from an expert in the Liturgy. When comparing the Liturgies of ROCOR and the Ruthenian Churches don't you need to keep in mind that the Ruthenian Churches have a more "ancient" tradition?
ROCOR is the product of Nikia (spelling) reforms where as the Carptho-Rusyn Church was not.
Do I have my facts correct? I think your question would make a good topic in a forum outside the RDL. It would be even more interesting to compare what our ancient traditions were to the RDL. The rubrics alone might be an eye opening experience. Is your Slavonic better than your old English  Monomakh
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... the Ruthenian Churches have a more "ancient" tradition? ... Do I have my facts correct? So we have been told and taught: In the first place, the existence of a special Ruthenian Recension has been ascertained older than that which is commonly called the vulgate, because it has not been corrected as this on the Greek Editions printed at the beginning of the seventeenth century. The Ruthenian Recension, then, inasmuch as it is concordant with older texts, deserves to be preferred. -- EUGENE CARD. TISSERANT CIRCULAR OF THE SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE ORIENTAL CHURCH TO RUTHENIAN ORDINARIES, Prot. N.: 1219/28, Rome, September 10, 1941 The Ordo, xi. http://www.patronagechurch.com/Ordo-English-1955/htm/xi.htm This raises the question: why then are there so many departures from the recension, even in what remains of it, in the abridgment that is the RDL? Consider this also from Fr. David Petras: The Archbishop of Lviv, the great Andrew Szeptytsky (1902-1944) became dissatisfied with this latinized Liturgicon and wanted to reform it once again, this time according to true Byzantine principles. Since the earlier reformers, mentioned above, had just achieved their objective of creating a hybrid ritual different from the Orthodox, they were not too receptive to Metropolitan Sheptytsky�s proposals. Again, the story is quite complicated, but it led to a split in policy between Metropolitan Andrew and his suffragan bishops. The split was irreconcilable, so the whole issue was turned over to the new Congregation for Eastern Church, established by Pope Benedict XV in 1917. This office undertook the process of reform, of returning the Ruthenian ritual back to its traditional roots, and to guide the process, relied on the research and advice of Archbishop Andrew�s friend, Father Cyril Korolevsky. (He was actually a Frenchman, Jean-Fran�ois Charon, who changed his name when he joined the Ruthenian Church.) His work was a true reform, returning the rite to its more authentic Eastern form. This was difficult to do, since the Liturgy had been modified for almost three centuries. He used the traditional texts of the Ruthenian Church where there was a unanimous tradition and followed the usage of the Great Russian Church where there were discrepancies, since his goal was to return to the universal Slavonic standards. This work was completed in 1941, and it was a true reform - the restoration of the Liturgy according to its Eastern form. After the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the Oriental Congregation also produced the Liturgies of St. Basil the Great and the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts, along with an Epistle and a Gospel book, a small Books of Needs (containing the sacramental mysteries, blessing and consecrations, the Book of Hours for the Divine Praises and - in 1973 - an Archieraticon, the book of the bishop�s rites. This conscious decision to restore the Liturgy was followed up by Rome in the solemn decrees of Vatican II, then in the Canon Law promulgated for the Eastern Churches, and most recently in the Liturgical Instruction of the Sacred Congregation for the Eastern Churches of January 6, 1996. It was not followed up properly in the Ruthenian Church, however. The work came to fruition, unfortunately, during the Second World War, and the churches in Europe were suffering. When the Communists came to dominate Eastern Europe, our Churches there came under persecution, were disestablished and had to go underground. In our own Church in America, Bishop Basil Takach was very sick and died in 1948. Bishop Daniel Ivancho was prepared to introduce the reformed Liturgicon, but was removed from office for other reasons. His successor, Bishop Nicholas Elko was unfortunately opposed to the reform, and his successor, Archbishop Stephen Kocisko, was very cautious about introducing any change. Actually a faithful translation of the 1941 Ruthenian Liturgicon was made by Bishop Elko, but he distributed along with it instructions for the celebration of the Liturgy that reverted to the 1905 latinized Liturgicon. Everything was put on hold for thirty years. Bishop Emil Mihalik of Parma was the first to promulgate the reformed Liturgy - albeit it in a pastoral format. There was opposition from the other eparchies, and Bishop Emil�s promulgation had a rough road to follow. Bishop Andrew Pataki followed with another promulgation in 1986, again in a pastoral format, which was accepted by the Eparchy of Van Nuys, and then by the Eparch of Passaic in 1996, when Bishop Andrew was transferred there. I will return to these shortly. Finally, when Judson Procyk became Metropolitan in 1995, his desire was for the true reform that had been prepared for many generations. To this end, he established a Liturgy Commission that was charged with making a translation of our liturgical books that would fulfill the commission of our Church to be faithful to its tradition. This would be a true reform, because it would fulfill the gospel of our Lord as passed on through tradition, as the Decree on Eastern Churches said, �All members of the Eastern Churches should be firmly convinced that they can and ought always preserve their own legtimate liturgical rites and ways of life, and that changes are to be introduced only to forward their own organic development. They themselves are to carry our all these prescriptions with the greatest fidelity. (� 6)� This is where we are now [ ajk added: now = 12-AUG-2006]. http://www.davidpetras.com/download...20Byzantine%20Church%20August%202006.docDn. Anthony
Last edited by ajk; 06/14/07 04:20 PM.
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Taking into consideration, from independent experts I have spoken with, the use of "us" and "mankind" is not inclusive but a deficiency or difference in the Greek language. I am not offended by its use. Sorry, I don't understand what this is saying; please explain further. Thanks.
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For goodness sake - Ray - did you ever look at Shakespeare in School - or Chaucer ? I fell asleep during those classes. 
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I will do a search later for an old post of mine. I have an expert in ancient Greek in my family. He is a Protestant. I asked him to look into the "inclusive" language issue a long time ago.
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