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Again, we should remember that invincible ignorance - even if it can be "stretched to mean nearly anything" - does NOT guarantee salvation. What is said concerning it is that IF a person IS invincibly ignorant (i.e. if God does not jugde them culpable for their ignorance) then they MAY be saved - not that they are saved.

This again leads us even more to appreciate the vocation of all to evangelise. No one in the visible Church is promised a place in heaven, and so much more is no one outside the visible Church promised a place in heaven. What the Church DOES give is the Truth and the Sacraments, which cannot, and must not, be underestimated by the orthodox faithful.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

Dear Theist Gal,

Thanks for bailing me out on the "deserves" thing.

To All,

This entire thread has evolved from the quote "will be saved". I think it was simply a poor choice of words on the Pope's part; "Can be saved" or "may be saved" would have been a lot less controversial. Until Benedict XVI posts a reply here I will assume "can be saved" or "may be saved" is what he meant.

Bill

I realize now my post above will not fly with those who say there is no salvation outside the Church.

When I was a child in grade school I remember asking one of my parish priests if the three elderly Protestant women who lived next door to me and the two Jewish families who lived across the alley behind me could go to heaven. He told me this story. "Imagine heaven being like a ballpark where the big game is about to be played and by chance you got a hold of some tickets. They might not be the best seats in the house but at least you made it to the game and you are happy to be there." I liked that explanation and it has always stuck with me.

"Lest we become like little children...."

Bill

Hi Bill -

I like that story!

There's another one I heard along the same lines - that non-Catholics will make it to Heaven if they walk on the right road - but they'll be passed along the way by the big air-conditioned bus full of Catholics!

"They strain at gnats.... they do not enter neither do they let others enter"

To All,

I think we are going about it all wrong. We use the words 'to be saved', when we should be saying that some will not 'attain' heaven. It is not God saving us, but rather we are saving ourselves, through our own will, by turning to God. We are opening our hearts so that the Holy Spirit may come into us, and can therefore attain that superior 'state of being' that we refer to as heaven.

Now why is it so important to accept Jesus the Logos? Because he is the 'Logos', (Word), and by accepting Him, we are accepting God's 'reasoning' that we are 'sinners' in need of redemption. This 'reasonings' of God is contrary to our own reasonings which are formed by 'pride'.

And why is Baptism so important? Because a 'believing' soul is imparting the Holy Spirit into another soul. Can someone then 'attain' heaven without baptism? I don't know! It certainly would be difficult...but then with God all is possible.

Just my opinion.

Zenovia

Uh, no offense but your opinion sounds Pelagian...
-Daniel, who if he is saved will be saved by the grace of God.

But technically wouldn't that be salvation by works? Maybe better to say our salvation is attained by the grace of God working through us and encouraging us to turn to Him. "It's all grace."

Theist Gal you are right!
We can NEVER SAVE ourselves, it is all a work of God. By grace are you saved through faith.
Now that does not deny human cooperation with God's grace working within us. Even our desire or ability to respond is a promoting of God's grace.
Stephanos I

Dear Friends,

There was someone who once said, "God is so good that He wants His gifts of Grace to be our merits!"

I think that is beautiful.

What do you think?

Alex

Dear Daniel you said:

Uh, no offense but your opinion sounds Pelagian...
-Daniel, who if he is saved will be saved by the grace of God.

I say:

I still believe that our hearts must turn to God, and by doing that God's Grace will flow in...and we will gradually attain 'heaven'. In that sense, we are the one's that are achieving heaven, through our own 'will' of opening our hearts to our Lord's Grace.

Of course heaven is a 'noun', and since we are achieving God's Grace, with the hope of going from 'glory' to 'glory' in the next; then heaven cannot possibly be a 'noun'. After all noun's have specific boundaries around them. Heaven does not! But because of our 'structural' language and culture, most can only conceive 'heaven' as being a place. Kind of silly like the 'toll houses'.

Yet the concept of the toll houses is basically very similar to the concept of purgatory...but not the place 'purgatory'...the state of being. Getting 'nit picky' aren't I.

Oh Well! Don't mind me, I love to think! I just hope the Holy Spirit's with me when I do. Oh my gosh! It better be..or all is lost!

Zenovia

There is nothing Pelagian in the Eastern Christian emphasis upon human freedom in the process of theosis.

Theosis involves a true synergy between God and man. In other words, man is not inactive in his own salvation, because salvation (theosis) is not something done to man; rather, the process of theosis is done in, with, and through man's own willing activity. In fact, the synergy of God and man in the process of salvation is so close that it is true to say that the energy of God and of the saints is one energy. But if a man fails to act, if he fails to live the life of virtue that he is called to by God, he will not be divinized.

As Fr. Florovsky put it, "Creation is not a phenomenon but a 'substance.' The reality and substantiality of created nature is manifested first of all in creaturely freedom. Freedom is not exhausted by the possibility of choice, but presupposes it and starts with it. And creaturely freedom is disclosed first of all in the equal possibility of two ways: to God and away from God. This duality of ways is not a mere formal or logical possibility, but a real possibility, dependent on the effectual presence of powers and capacities not only for a choice between, but also for the following of, the two ways. Freedom consists not only in the possibility, but also in the necessity of autonomous choice, the resolution and resoluteness of choice. Without this autonomy, nothing happens in creation. As St. Gregory the Theologian says, 'God legislates human self-determination.' 'He honored man with freedom that good might belong no less to him who chose it than to Him Who planted its seed.' Creation must ascend to and unite with God by its own efforts and achievements. And if the way of union requires and presupposes a responsive prevenient movement of Divine Mercy, 'the ancient law of human freedom,' as St. Irenaeus once put it, is not undermined by this. The way of disunion is not closed to creatures, the way of destruction and death. There is no irresistible grace, creatures can and may lose themselves, are capable, as it were, of 'metaphysical suicide.' In her primordial and ultimate vocation, creation is destined for union with God, for communion and participation in His life. But this is not a binding necessity of creaturely nature." [Florovsky, "Creation and Redemption," pages 48-49] Human freedom is not destroyed by grace, but is in fact presupposed by God's gracious energy.

Finally, as St. Maximos pointed out in his "Centuries on Love," being and ever being are predetermined by God, but how a man will exist in the eschaton is determined by his own activity; thus for well or ill it is man himself who determines his own fate in the life to come, and he does this through a true synergistic cooperation with God.

I believe Barbara Walters of ABC's 20/20 will be on TV tonight interviewing various people from different religions about "Heaven and how do we get there"

Brad

This statement goes beyond the Eastern understanding of theosis and is clearly Pelagian.
Not that I think Zenovia is an intentional heretic, but she chose her words carelessly.
-Daniel

Fr. Stephanos, perfectly put! I do surely agree on this.

Merry Christmas.

Porter