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Dec 29th, 2019
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 178
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What time is this Vesperal Liturgy(?) on the radio? It sounds like I'll need a bottle of liquor to help me get through it! God help us!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 178
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Steve Petach wrote: Now given that earlier in the review you were more dispassionate, it seems that now you turn less than charitable. Perhaps this was the first time they had broadcast their liturgical services? True not all cantors are perfect, at least they are willing to make the effort and face the slings and arrows of perfectionists listening to the broadcast. Does your own parish provide such radio outreach as a comparison? Why do we as a church focus so much of our energy on negative aspects?
Is this broadcast available via internet? I believe the Divine Liturgy has been on the radio for some time, say six or so years. Each parish in the Eparchy of Parma contributes to the cost of it on a monthly basis. It represents the entire Eparchy. That's why we get an opinion -- as our collection goes to pay for it. That broadcast showcases the Byzantine Church to anyone who listens to it -- it should be the most beautiful service we can muster. It's our calling card to those who don't have a clue who we are. It's especially important that we sing it beautifully, as the other senses are not engaged through the radio. Perhaps poor singing in church is offset by the beauty & incense experienced in the whole package. Why do we focus on negative aspects? Because our church seems unable to self-examine and correct its mistakes -- the same ones are repeated again, and again. Give us something positive to focus on, and I guarantee you'll have people on board faster than you can say Restored Divine Liturgy. I would be one of them, but right now I'm in the same boat as Recluse.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,595 Likes: 1
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH - that's the one I heard last night - and last week too I have to admit - I was very very disapointed  I had heard so much about the new settings etc and frankly I found them to be ..... well ... really I did not want to sing along I found the actual singing /chant bad . I cannot understand how anyone could manage to get so many intrusive 'h's in. In the days of my youth my singing teacher would have slain me for that . I would have been very correctly told to go away and not open my mouth in public till that fault was cured. As for , as Kobzar has mentioned , each person singing in their own key well words fail me on that - how unprofessional - and if this sort of thing is going out every week - well sorry - someone needs to do some work with clergy and chanters . I can't comment re the actual texts used - I don't know enough about Liturgy - and of course what I am used to is different [ UGCC and in Ukrainian to boot] I enjoyed hearing it sung in English - well enjoyed is I fear a little OTT Why was so much rushed when sung - aren't we supposed to be able to hear and understand what is being sung ? All I know is that I couldn't and if I listening intently could not - what chance is there for the person standing in the Church who is also trying to join in Communal Worship. I know it's not easy to get mikes correctly positioned in a Church - but I presume these ones are placed for the broadcast use not solely for the benefit those of the congregation present. OH yes - and where did they get that silent thurible from - now that's an interesting invention.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,760 Likes: 29
John Member
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Now given that earlier in the review you were more dispassionate, it seems that now you turn less than charitable. � True not all cantors are perfect, at least they are willing to make the effort and face the slings and arrows of perfectionists listening to the broadcast. Does your own parish provide such radio outreach as a comparison? Why do we as a church focus so much of our energy on negative aspects? Steve is correct. Praise the effort and be as dispassionate as is possible when speaking of the Revisions and other problems in our Church. The problems with the texts, rubrics and music are not the cantor�s fault. As to Steve�s last question, I think that we as a Church focus so much of our energy on the negative is because the path to the growth of our Church is so clear and yet we keep diverting our journey onto dead end trails. Look at greater Pittsburgh. Most parishes are lukewarm and have severe abbreviations in the Liturgy. Yet in the midst of them one parish started praying the full official Divine Liturgy (accurate rubrics, no abbreviations (meaning every little litany), and over time added Vespers and Matins). In ten years this parish - in a city that lost more than half its population in the past 25 years - grew from 30 worshippers on a Sunday to 140 worshippers on a Sunday (and buried another 130). The quality of liturgical prayer was phenomenal and the people raised the roof with their singing even at Vespers. Not all that far away the Cathedral in Munhall began experimenting with revisions to the Divine Liturgy - new words, rubrics and music. People responded by heading for the door, and the quality of the Liturgy is poor and the singing is almost nonexistent. So which one was chosen as the model? The one that grew from 30 to 130? No. The one that chased away the people is the model. We prohibit a celebration of the Liturgy that has been demonstrated in a number of places to grow the Church and instead mandate a celebration of the Liturgy that has been shown to kill the Church. Is there any wonder why people are always so negative? But it�s not too late! The bishops could rescind the RDL and instead mandate what works � the official Ruthenian Divine Liturgy.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
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So which one was chosen as the model? The one that grew from 30 to 130? No. The one that chased away the people is the model. We prohibit a celebration of the Liturgy that has been demonstrated in a number of places to grow the Church and instead mandate a celebration of the Liturgy that has been shown to kill the Church. Lord have mercy!  But it�s not too late! The bishops could rescind the RDL and instead mandate what works � the official Ruthenian Divine Liturgy. Let us pray fervently that this will come to pass. 
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,177
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Dear Steve, I realise that the exchange between the priest and reader is often glanced over, only half executed, or at best just 'not heard'. In Sunday's broadcast the reader was at a microphone, the priest could be clearly heard and there was an opportunity for the reader to respond. In theory he could have pulled back from microphone and replied, on the other hand his reply does not appear in the RDL so I shouldn't have expected it. As to 10 stichera, the RDL book only shows three stichera (for Sunday), however a cantor could add the remaining seven to complete the celebration. The BCC is down to three stichera on a Saturday evening? I thought the Basilian practice of not repeating any stichera was bad enough, but even they haven't gone that far. Does anyone know the history of this abbreviation? Has it come in with the RDL or is it older? Was this a live broadcast or prerecorded and edited for a time slot on radio? Also, was the homily broadcast? If not, that will also cut down the airtime. As I stated in my 'review' this was a Sunday evening broadcast of a Saturday evening service. Thank you for reminding me of the homily. It was not cut, although this was the first time I've ever heard "The title of today's homily is ...". Now given that earlier in the review you were more dispassionate, it seems that now you turn less than charitable. Perhaps this was the first time they had broadcast their liturgical services? True not all cantors are perfect, at least they are willing to make the effort and face the slings and arrows of perfectionists listening to the broadcast. Does your own parish provide such radio outreach as a comparison? Why do we as a church focus so much of our energy on negative aspects? I will not deny that I was less than charitable, but I could find no other way in which to put across my feelings and reactions to this broadcast, this is why I didn't post immediately after the broadcast. As I was lead to believe, and as others have confirmed, this is a regular broadcast - not a first time attempt. I know that few cantors are 'perfect', but should not the Church be putting forward their best? My parish does not provide any such broadcasts, although I wish they did. I did compliment the Parma cathedral for actually having such a programme, I'm just disappointed with the result. Why all the negativity? How are people expected to react when the traditions of their Church are dismissed, when they are treated as children, when they see good practice ignored and bad practice promoted? Should people from a parish which served the Divine Liturgy according to the Recensio Rutena say "Thank you for butchering the Antiphons and removing Litanies."? People are frustrated and as a result turn negative. This is not an ideal reaction, but it is a reality. It appears that the Vesperal Divine Liturgy can be heard via WHKW 1200 AM's website [ whkwradio.com] only as it is being broadcast, Sundays at 5:00 PM. There does not appear to be an option to "listen again". I wonder why there is no information about these broadcasts on the web pages of the Parma Eparchy [ parma.org] nor the Parma cathedral [ home.catholicweb.com].
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Joined: Dec 2005
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Should people from a parish which served the Divine Liturgy according to the Recensio Rutena say "Thank you for butchering the Antiphons and removing Litanies."? People are frustrated and as a result turn negative. Yes. Sadly, what you have posted here is a description of what has ocurred at my parish. It is difficult to react in a way other than complete disgust. It is not enjoyable to walk around in a perpetual state of disgust, and this is one reason why I am compelled to find another Eastern Catholic Church--or convert to Holy Orthodoxy.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 250
Byzantine Secret Service Member
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 250 |
WOW!Finally a thread that is really discussing what this Revised Divine Liturgy is all about. I have to make sure I catch the broadcast next Sunday. That is if it does not mysteriously disappear.  
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533 Likes: 1
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It appears that: WHKW AM 1220 [ whkwradio.com] allows you to listen live to the radio broadcast. It appears [ whkwradio.com] every Sunday at 5pm EST you can listen to the RDL live from Cathedral of Parma. [ parma.org] So, if you haven't had a chance to hear the RDL this might be your chance.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,595 Likes: 1
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Joined: Nov 2001
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I'll be listening next week .
I want to see if this will become more familiar as the weeks go on. I also wish to see if the various musical problems become less as the Clergy, Cantors and people become more familiar with it.
Anyone care to join me in this ?
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 856
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The BCC is down to three stichera on a Saturday evening? I thought the Basilian practice of not repeating any stichera was bad enough, but even they haven't gone that far. Does anyone know the history of this abbreviation? Has it come in with the RDL or is it older? This is something specific to the Vesperal Liturgy ("Vigil Divine Liturgy" in the new books), and has been in place for years. Father David's Typikon, which is normative for the Byzantine Catholic Church, gives the usual rules for stichera at Vespers, and the Metropolitan Cantor Institute vespers books for Saturday night give seven stichera (with the saints' stichera posted weekly on its website); the daily Vespers book is similarly complete. But in this case, the Typikon adds: In some parishes, the Divine Liturgy is celebrated on Saturday evening. I recommend, that whenever the Divine Liturgy is celebrated in the evening, it be celebrated with the Office of Vespers. This precedent is founded in Byzantine liturgical practice, as may be seen on the feasts of Pascha, Christmas, Theophany, and the Annunciation. The following format is recommended:
and there follows the order of service, which is that found in the new Green Book (including Psalm 103)
In parochial use, on Saturday evening, three stichera of the tone and a doxasticheron are recommended at Psalm 140. That the faithful may hear all the stichera in the Octoechos, the following pattern is recommended:
(Pattern for dividing up the resurrectional stichera, anatolian stichera and apostichera across the year, and recommendations for using additional stichera on feasts) So the format of the stichera is specific to the Vigil Divine Liturgy, as has been published in the BCC for quite a number of years, specifically to be used in place of a Saturday evening Divine Liturgy. (The Cantor's Companion goes on to note that Vespers rather than the Vigil Divine Liturgy is the preferred option on those days for which an evening Divine Liturgy is not specifically appointed.) Do I like the Vigil Divine Liturgy? Not particularly, certainly not as a replacement for Vespers! On the other hand, our local OCA parish omits all the chanted verses of Psalm 140 as well and the saints' stichera in most cases, so I can hardly be shocked at parishes not taking all ten stichera. Even with just three verses, I've heard quite a few complaints about "stuff from Vespers" in the Divine Liturgy book. It's interesting to note that one can celebrate an ordinary Vespers almost entirely from the Green Book, without a parish having to purchase anything additional except for the cantors. Of course, for a regular service of Vespers, one would want books for the service, or a combined anthology like the Velikij Sbornik. Yours in Christ, Jeff
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The Prokeimenon and Alleluia were with verses. I note that after the Epistle, though the 'celebrant' addresses the 'lector' with �Peace be to you reader�, the usual reply of �And with your spirit� is not in the text, nor was it sung. Why? There is no response at this point in the Sluzhenik and Apostol of the Ruthenian recension; in fact, "reader" in the English translation appears to be an addition to make clear that fact that the blessing is in the singular. Yours in Christ, Jeff
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Joined: Jul 2002
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Thanks for looking - forgot to do so myself. Then again, no one has ever said the Recensio Rutena books were perfect � just better than most! This is one of numerous lacunae, including a reply to "Peace be with you." before the Epistle, St. Olha in the list of saints at the Lytia petitions, etc.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Our Lady's Slave - I'll join you in your endeavor.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,595 Likes: 1
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OK - a reminder for those interested. The Vesperal Divine Liturgy from St John's Cathedral in Parma will be broadcast tonight at 5pm Eastern Time [ sorry can't convert it for anyone else ] The Radio Station is WHKW, 1220 AM At the moment I am unable to raise the Station on the Web - but will keep trying Link for Radio Station [ whkwradio.com]
Last edited by Our Lady's slave; 06/24/07 02:46 PM.
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