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Dear Alex,

Are you perhaps confusing the Stations of the Cross with the Scala Santa?

Fr. Serge

Bless, Father Archimandrite!

Actually, it is the Stations of the Cross and I read through it last night.

One is to trace the Cross on the floor and then reverence it following each station . . .

Alex

Very interesting!

It illustrates how truly interdependent we are and were, especially as the traditions became codified.

Robster, not sure as to what inconsistencies you are referring.

How I wish it were not so. Thanks for your kind words about my blog. I should tend to it more, but there are interesting people here, who "speak" back.

I agree there is an irreverence in going forward unprepared for communion -- though one can certainly prepare to receive the Sacrament everyday. Would that more people would. The trouble is for much of the East's history, and in some traditions even today, the faithful often only commune a few times a year, preceded by an intense fast and confession. So, there are extremes on both sides of the fence that need mended. As the Bible says, "Depart neither to the right nor the left."

There are many highly imaginative things in the "Synod of Milan" publications. Of course, the "Old Sarum Rite Missal" is no longer celebrated in the monastery that dreamed it up (and wore Byzantine vestments and claimed communing the faithful by spoon was an ancient Western custom), which begs the question why anyone else should be interested. (Leaving aside the highly dubious "scholarship" involved.)

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Western Orthodoxy Blog [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]

[quote=ebed melech
Robster, not sure as to what inconsistencies you are referring.[/quote]

Gordo, it appears that my views are far enough off the chart in comparison to what is considered the center of gravity of discussion at this site, that I'm simply going to bow out. I don't have anything constructive to offer, and don't want to run the risk of failing to observe sufficient charity. I'm certainly willing to continue the discussion 'offline'.

Best to all,
Robster

Dear Gordo,

In fact, to study the Celtic Church is to study Coptic spirituality at one and the same time.

If you've ever seen Fr. Archimandrite Sergius Keleher, he could just as easily have called himself "Amba Shenoute"

Alex

The thought of calling myself "Amba Shenoute" has never even occurred to me. However, there are seven or eight Coptic Saints buried in County Antrim, of all places. Wouldn't it be fun to have Pope Shenouda come visit the holy relics? Imagine the headlines "POPE TO VISIT COUNTY ANTRIM"!

However, since I'm the archtypical Byzantine chauvinist, I don't expect to be heading Coptward any time soon. Like W. B. Yeats, I'm happiest "sailing to Byzantium".

Fr. Serge

Bless Father Archimandrite!

That is definitely not a "Copt-out" on your part!

Yes, those seven Coptic saints are mentioned in the old Irish Litany of all Saints (of Ireland, I believe).

Are they buried in a cemetery or are they enshrined in a church? Always wondered . . .

The Celtic Church was the only Western one that prescribed prostrations, if I'm not mistaken.

When you have a moment, could you comment on the Celtic horological translation on this site: www.celticchristianity.org [celticchristianity.org] ?

Slainte!

Alex

Why was there only one Western church that ever prescribed prostrations? I'm a big fan of prostrations, but apparently they only occur in the Latin Church one is receiving Orders or taking Vows.

Alexis

Dear Alexis,

Without having the scholarly knowledge of others here, I would venture to hypothesize that the bowing on one knee gesture (genuflecting) of the RC church is somewhat similar in intent to the Eastern prostration. I would also venture to say that these are simply cultural differences...The practice of prostrations is very Middle Eastern, and that is why the Muslim world also practices them.

However, I have been watching the Showtime series, The Tudors, and they seem to have done a brilliant job bringing the culture of that era (early years of King Henry VIII--before his divorce) to life, including the ecclesiastical culture, which was ofcourse, initially Roman Catholic.

At a Good Friday service, for instance, there were penitent faithful walking on their knees towards the altar, as the Priest said "Behold the cross on which our Lord died", and there is another scene where Queen Katherine (of Aragon), a deeply religious and devout Catholic, is kneeling deeply in prayer in her chapel before the altar, and finishes her prayer by bowing to kiss the floor. That seemed to me, to be almost identical to the Eastern act of prostration.

Regards,
Alice

True. And modern-day Roman Catholics also approach the Cross barefoot, and sometimes crawling on hands and knees to venerate it during Good Friday liturgies and devotions. Don't know about other times in the year.

I'm pretty sure this is the practice at the local Traditional Catholic church, run by the FSSP.

Alexis

Considering 'nouti/noute/nounda' in Coptic means 'god', it appears that 'Shenounda/Shenoute' means 'o god!'. What a curious name for a baby!

Dear Alexis-Logo,

If RC's do that, they are most definitely NOT modern-day RC's!

The Celts took the practice of prostrations directly from the Coptic Church with whose practices they came into contact with via St Patrick and other Saints trained in southern France (especially the monastic establishment on the isle of Lerins, St Honoratus). There the influence of St John Cassian, who wrote down those practices in his "Conferences" I believe (as mentioned by St Benedict the Great in his Rule) was most pronounced.

I visited Lerins a few years back and one may walk around the perimeter of that island in half an hour. That perimeter is punctuated by seven (by my count, there could be more) small chapels that served as the focus for smaller groups of monks. This in addition to the large, now ruined, ancient monastery that juts out into the Mediterranean where great Saints like Patrick and others trained before returning to their homelands.

Lerins followed the Rule of St Pachomios, as communicated to it by St John Cassian, but could also have added other monastic traditions of local provenance. Celtic Saints, as we read in some of their lives, began praying by making three full prostrations with the Sign of the Cross. They also prayed by extending their arms in the four directions, much like an Eastern bishop will face all four directions before a Pontifical Divine Liturgy or during the celebration of the Precious Cross on September 27 (OC).

The Celtic Christians saw themselves as descendants of the tradition of St John the Evangelist, and so they routinely read the Gospel of St John, three chapters a day, to get through it in one week, every week, (together with the Acts of the Apostles - both books were thus committed to memory) and prayed the Psalms TWICE in every 24 hours, twelve psalms each hour. This was the practice of the Coptic Thebaid. (BTW, this asetic practice was taken up by the Anglican family of Nicholas Ferrar at Little Gidding in the middle of the 17th century - Ferrar encouraged the village children to memorize the Psalter and gave each child a penny for every psalm they could say from memory leading to numerous children learning the psalter by heart to the joy of their parents who saw amazing change in their children as a result!).

The practice of reading Scripture devotionally is also important in Eastern spirituality and St Seraphim of Sarov read throught he entire New Testament each and every week, often assigning complete Gospels to certain days and the like.

Alex

Either you need to get out of Canada even more than you do and in different directions...or I live in a region that is stuck in a time warp.

M.

Modern RC's do too do that, as Elijahmaria noted!

Alexis