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RP is right on one account, Poland's Western "allies" did sell them to the Soviets at the end of WWII.Some of these same allies sold Czechoslovakia to Hitler in 1938.

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I am sorry for getting off topic. Sometimes I pick up on a phrase and it angers me so. I have to learn humility and restraint. Please pray for me in your prayers
Tomasz

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Originally posted by RP:
I am sorry for getting off topic. Sometimes I pick up on a phrase and it angers me so. I have to learn humility and restraint. Please pray for me in your prayers
Tomasz
Dear Tomasz,

My humble prayers.

Gaudior, a sinner

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Lord, please make all our words mild and tender, for tomorrow we may have to eat them.

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Quote
Originally posted by Fr. Al:
Some of these same allies sold Czechoslovakia to Hitler in 1938.
Dear Fr Al,

You are correct. The western governments 'sold out' Czechoslovakia to Hitler by not upholding their commitment to the treaty of Versaille which was signed at the end of World War 1 by the victors.

The Carpatho-Rusyns did not want to be part of the facist alliance and after hearing the news in 1938 they intensified their preparations for an eventual split from Slovakia. This happened the next year in 1939 when Monsignor Avgustyn Voloshyn declared a separate independant Carpatho-Ukrainian (Carpatho-Rusyn) state which they hoped could remain neutral. No such luck. The Hungarian nationalists who were allied with the Germans invaded the next day and brutally put down the new government.

Hritzko

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OK

All I have to say is WISLA to RP.
And how dare you attack UPA and Ukrainians that way.

I lived in Lviv this summer, across the street from the Roman Catholic Cathedral. They claim to be the Ukrainian Roman Catholic Church:
There was nothing Ukrainian about them, just Polish flags and colors all around and services in Polish.

I have no problem with having a Roman Catholic Church in Ukraine, but don't trick people into saying it is Ukrainian. The Roman Catholic Church is doing the same thing as the Moscow Patriarchate.

Dear Moscow Patriarchate and Roman Catholic Church of Poland,
DEAL WITH IT! UKRAINE IS FREE AND WE HAVE THE RIGHT FOR OUR OWN CHURCH! STOP TRYING TO TRICK UKRAINIANS. Call yourselves what you are: Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine and Polish Roman Catholic Church in Ukraine!

......and to those who speak against UPA and Ukraine, I am offended and am sure others are also. My family members were involved in this HEROIC Ukrainian Freedom Organization who lived by the motto: GOD and UKRAINE!!!!!!!!!!!

SLAVA ISUSU KHRYSTU!

SLAVA UKRAYINI!!!!!

PS: RP, I will pray for you and you pray for me!

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Speaking of that has anyone in here ever heard the prophesy of Padre Pio concerning Russia.
That it would return to communion with Rome and lead the other Orthodox Churches to re unite?
Stephanos I

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Dear Patriarkhat,
While I fully agree with your analysis of the facts - and I consider Polish revanchism seriously dangerous - I do have one criticism of a religious nature to offer: "Glory" belongs exclusively to God. And I remember only too well those once-ubiquitous placards all over the USSR urging the readers to give "glory" to the most unlikely recipients.
Incognitus

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"Slava" is a word that can be understood in many ways in the Ukrainian language. It does not have to be interpreted theologically. Look at the movie in the US about the Civil War, it was called Glory.
......but, your point is well taken.

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KO63AP
however did you write with all those little curvey things?
Stephanos I

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Dear Patriarkhat,

That's it!

Incognitus is a modern UGC priest who trained under Prof. Andrij Chirovsky!

It all makes sense now . . . smile

Alex

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Quote
Originally posted by RP:
I am sorry for getting off topic. Sometimes I pick up on a phrase and it angers me so. I have to learn humility and restraint. Please pray for me in your prayers
Tomasz
Dear Tomasz,

The truth is that there were mistakes made by everyone during the last World War. The anger you feel is mostly the product of 'half truths' being leveraged over generations for the benefit of various political groups - mostly the Communists in both Poland and Ukraine.

For example, the statement that you made concerning UPA collaborating with the NAZIS is untrue. In fact, the UPA was organized in Volyn in 1943 to help speed up the NAZIS' full retreat from Ukraine, and block the entry of the Russian Communists. There is ample archival evidence (German, Dutch, Polish, Slovak, etc...) of the UPA's fight with the NAZIS.

If you read my statement carefully, it was stated that Mr Kruk lead the UPA from 1950 to 1954 when there were no more NAZIs regimes anywhere (o.k. maybe there were a few goose steppers in Argentina wink ). Clearly, they were fighting the Communist who had a very difficult time consolidating power on all sides of the Carpathian mountains. During this period, the Carpatho-Rusyns played an integral role in helping fleeing anti-communist Ukrainian nationalists escape to the west (once they realized the situation was hopeless and surrender meant execution or deportation to Siberia for long periods of time).

There was a brief conflict in early 1943 between the UPA and the Poles in Volyn only. It would be pointless to blame one side or the other for this conflict. The figures you mentioned appear to be inflated even by Communist reports who tried to exploit this conflict for their own needs - and still do. After Volyn, the Polish KA did not fight with the Ukrainian UPA, and in many ways was later supportive of their efforts (ie: they even collaborated eek ).

Immediatelly after the war some members of both groups were deported in to Siberia where they came to better understand each other's positions. They actually reconcilled and continued to meet in secret in both Eastern Europe and the diaspora until the early 1990's.

There was much benefit to cooperating over this time. For example, the Polish political party 'Solidarity' fully supported the recognition of the current boundaries of Ukraine. Lech Walesa on many occassions stated that "without an independant Ukraine, there will be no independance for Poland". This philosophy eventually became political policy of the ELECTED Polish government. Poland was the first country to recognize Ukraines declaration of independance after it's national referendum in 1991. The Polish government now fully recognizes the national boarders of Ukraine. Your idea of re-establishing a 'Greater Polish Lithuanian Commonweath' (actually by your description even bigger biggrin ) is clearly not an idea shared by Poles today.

On this side of the pond, mutual cooperation and understanding has been an integral element in re-establishing independance for both nations. For exmple, in one of Toronto's west end communities, where the Ukrainians and Poles were numerous, they would take turns electing a member of their ethinic group to the Canadian Parliment. By cooperating they were able to both win power in government. There are many other good examples.

Also, I'm happy to say that the vast majority of young educated recent immigrant Poles to North America whom I meet are very supportive of a complete reconcilliation of the two nations.

I'm sorry that your views are different. Perhaps it's time to evolve.

Hritzko

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Dear Alex,
I do hope that Father Andriy Chirovsky will take that for the compliment that it undoubtedly is!

Incognitus

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Patriarkhat Poles have lived in Lwow and surrounding areas for about 700 years they are not foreignors they are natives. No matter how much some Ukrainians search for a 100% ukrainian identity, which is very tough to define they should remember about The Poles, Armenians, Tartars,Jews and others who lived in Ukraine, have lived that they are Ukrainians in heart[Just like the many Germans in western Poland who were assimilated into Polish society and culture]Ukraine and Poland's boundaries change constantly so one day its this and the other day it is.... and so and so on. The moskow patriarchy is foreign to this area.But to tell you the truth the reasons I support return of Latin to the Roman Catholic church is the same reason you said that it is a Polish church there and a Russian church there and etcetera.... It is the Latin Church. The Poles in Lwow and others areas in Lithaunia,Belarus,Ukraine barely know or speak Polish. A long time ago hard to believe Lwow was considered more Polish than Warsaw,Gdansk, or Krakow.

responses to other questions
The boundaries I described of Poland in my dreams are from a prophecy found in the Ossolinski family library.

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The prophecies of RUssia's conversion are from Our Lady of Fatima not Padre Pio. I have not heard of any Padre Pio prophecies.Let us hope that John Paul II Pope, with all his bishops consecrates Russia to the Immaculate Heart of MARY and as Mary,Mother of God promised that if this is done Russia shall be converted and that it shall stop spreading its errors.

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