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Originally Posted by Mr. Clean
This, in a nutshell, is the entire problem of Rome and Orthodoxy. There is so much lack of forgiveness and understanding - on both sides.

The forgiveness part I can definitely see. But lack of understanding? I think the doctrinal differences between both sides have been widely studied and are well known. The RC say the Pope has universal and complete jurisdiction over the whole church while the EO say that he does not. The RC say the Pope can issue infallible statements all on his own while the EO say that an ecumenical council is necessary for this. The RC say the Pope can alter the Nicene Creed all on his own while the EO say he cannot. I'm not "picking" on either side -- just saying it seems like the big dividing issues are well known.

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Krysostomos - Who has the right to add and remove titles for a particular head of a Church? I can't imagine the answer to be anybody but the leadership of that particular Church but I'm willing to be educated.

I think it is downright irresponsible for any Orthodox prelate to pass up a chance to bring more than 1 billion seperated bretheren to Orthodoxy. It would be just as irresponsible for any Catholic prelate to pass up a chance to bring 250 million separated bretheren fully into the Catholic communion.

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Quote
I think it is downright irresponsible for any Orthodox prelate to pass up a chance to bring more than 1 billion seperated bretheren to Orthodoxy. It would be just as irresponsible for any Catholic prelate to pass up a chance to bring 250 million separated bretheren fully into the Catholic communion.
I think you are missing the point that there are official ecumenical talks between the Catholic Church and representatives of the Eastern orthodox jurisdictions. If union comes it will not be between one Eastern Orthodox Patriarch and the Catholic Church. Union will be between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church as a whole.

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My point was not about the doctrinal differences between Rome and Orthodoxy. Those differences are discussed ad nauseaum on this board.

My point is that Catholics and Orthodox are threatened by the very same things - namely, radical Islam, rampant secularism, an entertainment and media that is relentlessly anti-Christian, as well as shallow, empty feel-good megachurch type evangelizing.

One meeting between Pope Benedict and Patriarch Alexey isn't going to solve differences in doctrine. A thousand meetings won't solve that.

There should be some spirit of cooperation in struggling against what threatens us all.

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Fighting old battles is so much fun!!!!!! Why talk to Ratzinger? I picked up the following;I provide the opening for context and the ending which I find so offensive:


ROME: Dismay and anger as Pope declares Protestants cannot have churches

by John Hooper in Rome and Stephen Bates
The Guardian
http://tinyurl.com/246c7r
July 11, 2007

Protestant churches yesterday reacted with dismay to a new declaration approved by Pope Benedict XVI insisting they were mere "ecclesial communities" and their ministers effectively phonies with no right to give communion.

Coming just four days after the reinstatement of the Latin mass, yesterday's document left no doubt about the Pope's eagerness to back traditional Roman Catholic practices and attitudes, even at the expense of causing offence.

The view that Protestants cannot have churches was first set out by Pope Benedict seven years ago when, as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, he headed the Vatican "ministry" for doctrine. A commentary attached to the latest text acknowledged that his 2000 document, Dominus Iesus, had caused "no little distress".

...The Vatican's statement had fewer misgivings about the Orthodox Church, which had "true sacraments" and a genuine priesthood. But their failure to acknowledge the Pope's authority meant they suffered from a "defectus", politely translated from Latin as "a wound".

On Saturday, the Pope freed Catholics to ask for masses to be celebrated according to the Latin rite abolished by the Second Vatican Council. This meant the reinstatement of a Good Friday prayer describing Jews as blind to the Christian truth.

The president of the Italian rabbinical assembly, Giuseppe Laras, yesterday called it "a heavy blow". He told the daily Corriere della Sera: "We are going back. A long way back."

Old wounds? Looks like Vatican II has been junked and the Orthodox Church is still in error for the same old reasons. Saint Photius the Great is probably spinning in his grave.

Last edited by johnzonaras; 07/16/07 12:35 PM.
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Saint Photius of Constantinople reposed in full peace and communion with Rome, so he has no reason to be turning over in his grave, let alone spinning around in it. I can think of plenty of reasons for him to be singing the praises of Almighty God, but since I have not yet been blessed to live in what C. S. Lewis called Deep Heaven, it's much better for me strive to join the Saints there and sing the praises of God myself.

Meanwhile, it might be well to bear in mind that, yes, Pope Benedict has said - more than once - that Eastern Orthodoxy suffers a wound or defect because of the lack of that same peace and communion with the Church of Rome. Orientale Lumen teaches that Eastern Catholics suffer from a deep wound because of our lack of full communion with Eastern Orthodoxy. That is a great grief, but it is not insulting; it is the simple truth.

By the way, Pope Benedict did not say that the "Protestants cannot have churches". He said that in sad fact they do not at present have churches, for the objective reason that they did not retain the Apostolic Succession at the Reformation. It is no great pleasure to say that, but it is the truth, and one must begin with the truth.

The Old Ritualists, through no fault of their own, were deprived of Hierarchs for nearly 200 years. But they did not resort to presbyterian or congregationalist forms of ordination; they believed firmly that in His own good time, Almighty God would send them Hierarchs, and eventually God did precisely that, in response to a great many prayers, sufferings, and tears.

Fr. Serge

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Serge, you ought to go read the commentary on the conservative Anglican blog run by David Virtue where many evangelical Anglicans make the case that the Roman Church or the Orthodox Church are not true churches because sacraments are not as important as a personal relationship with Christ, something which---IN THEIR OPINION-- most Catholics and Orthodox lack.

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johnzonaras

Serge Keleher is Father Archimandrite Serge Keleher and he did sign his post Fr Serge wink

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Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
johnzonaras

Serge Keleher is Father Archimandrite Serge Keleher and he did sign his post Fr Serge wink

He also very rudely called Pope Benedict "Ratzinger" and Patriarch Bartholomew as "Bart".

Gordo

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Here are the pictures of the meeting between pope Benedict and Archbishop Christodoulos in the Redemptoris Mater Chapel in Rome.

Thanks to Amadeus for his suggestion to post this!

http://www.fotografiafelici.com/index.php?page=scripts/inserimento&num_file=71&cerimonia=7167%2001%20Sua%20Beatitudine%20Chrysostomos%20II&data=2007-07-17%2017:23:39&cod=419&language=ITA#foto

God grant these two holy hierarchs many happy and blessed years!

Gordo

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You're welcome!

Minor correction: It's Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Cyprus, not Archbishop Christodoulos of Greece! biggrin

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