www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Vesperal Liturgy broadcast

I couldn't get through. I tried for an hour.

I am interested to hear it. Perhaps next week. Is there anyone who can down load it?

Dear bergschlawiner,

Try metropolitancantorinstitute.org

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Bergschlawiner,

Visit The Kliros forum for Administrator John's link to a Ruthenian DL with music.

Ungcsertez

Perhaps they decided to edit the Liturgy to fit into a one hour format. I know that in my parish when we do a vesperal DL it is often an hour and a half.
Having listened to copy of the broadcast in question, I too was disappointed by the omission of Ps 103.
Only three stichera were sung, which is all that is indicated in the pew book. (personally I rather that all 10 stichera be sung for ANY vespers or Vesper-liturgy)


Most likely, the silences were trimmed. The entire service was trimmed to fit into a 54 minute time slot including introduction and ending comments.


I would hope that this one example via radio would not be your sole judgement on the entire church! Yes, there is much to dislike about the broadcast/recording.


�Lo-ho-hord have merrrr-cy� is most definitely grating on the ears, not good technique! The nuances of the voices are more pronounced when for the broadcast, the cantor, deacon and priest are so closely miked. I dislike close miking because you lose the natural reverberation and ambiance of the church itself. Given that this isn�t their first time broadcasting the Liturgy, I would hope that some constructive feedback is given so that the broadcast might be more �live�. At Holy Ghost in McKees Rocks, PA the 9am Sunday liturgy is broadcast live with a more general microphone placement that allows the listener to hear more voices singing along.


It seems that to some �recited� means literally that. I have on many occasions heard the prayers chanted and they are actually not bad in sound. I still have trouble with some of the translations though.


Fortunately, not all services celebrated with the RDL sound as �difficult to listen to� as what was broadcast. I have heard better and I have experienced worse than this. I would hope that should my own parish (cathedral) broadcast the DL, it would sound much more pleasing, even though we do use the RDL and have been for several months now. We haven�t had an exodus of parishioners.

From a technical stand point--there is no reason for broadcasting either a live or recorded event with bad mic placement. I teach radio broadcasting and spent almost twenty years on air as a dj, newsperson and talk show host before turning to teaching. Many times we broadcast live, from a variety of environments. Anyone with a minimum of experience can set up microphones properly to get the sound right. Don't get me wrong, a church is probably one of the WORST places inwhich to record something. The stone throughout, the marble throughout and the high ceilings make it more challenging than a simiple room. But it is still not that hard. Physics is still physics. A body mic (which they are obviously using) is not the cause for bad singing or all of those really annoying "h"s that were in the broadcast. I don't know that it is fair to blame the RDL for the extra "h"s. The words are the same, just the tune was different, in many places. I don't want to pick on anyone, but one would think the Cantor at a Cathedral would know better than to add the "H"s. And this broadcast has been going on for about six years, I believe. All parties involved have done this before. So why does it sound as bad, technically, as it does? That's a wonderful question. I don't know who recorded it, edited it or anything else about it. Does anyone? I would be curious.

Tim

What is a Vesperal Liturgy? It sounds like a Latinization... should we really be broadcasting such an abuse, for everyone to hear?

It is nuts.

Nick

I see no reason in principle to object to broadcasting a Vesperal Liturgy - provided it takes place on Christmas Eve or Theophany Eve (in those years when Christmas does not fall on Sunday or Monday), on Holy Thursday, on Holy Saturday, and/or on the feast of the Annunciation in those years when the Typicon prescribes the Vesperal Liturgy.

Why would one do such a thing on any other occasion?

Fr. Serge

Orthodox churches, (at least the OCA), allow Vesperal Liturgies on certain feasts with the Bishops permission. My parish had a VL on the vigil of Ascencion.

Our priest is part time, with a secular job, and it was the only way to hold a service for the feast... Hope this helps.

Bishop Tikhon (OCA) of San Francisco seems to be very much against that practice [holy-trinity.org].

I read Bishop Tikhon's letter. I think it is well written and that he makes a good case against Vesperal Liturgies that are not specifically prescribed. On the other hand, he loses me in a few places. I think his criticism of the Catholic Church comes dangerously close to crossing into the territory of self-righteousness. Also, I ultimately think he may be a bit unrealistic in discussing practical considerations. For example, last night, my pastor offered Vespers and the DL of SJC for the Feast of Ss. Peter and Paul and he will offer the same services tonight for the mission in Austin. My wife and I attended the service. Counting the two priests (the pastor and a priest visiting his parents), I can recall 23 persons present-there were possibly more, but if so, not many. Had the service been scheduled in the morning-even at 5AM, which is a few hours prior to the time most people have to be at work, there may have been 2 or 3 parishioners, but more likely, there would have been none. Houston is a huge city, though our Church has only one parish in Houston. My wife and I live within the city boundaries of Houston, and we have about a 25 mile drive to the Church, which is also in Houston. Many of the parishioners have a far greater distance to drive. I know of one family that has a drive that takes them about and hour and 15 minutes one way. Furthermore, most of the parishioners work in places that are as far from the Church as their homes are. It is simply far more practical for many parishioners to come in the evening when travel times are not doubled by the horrendous morning traffic and they do not have to battle their children to get them out of bed 2 or 3 hours earlier than what would be the norm. Perhaps these matters don't convince Bishop Tikhon. But they are the reality of life in a country that has few Orthodox parishes and even fewer Eastern Catholic parishes. In many cases, the options are DL in the evening for feast days, or no DL at all for feast days. I choose the former, problematic though it might be.

Ryan

In his zeal Bishop Tikhon has overlooked a few matters:

a) the Typicon provides that in most years the Divine Liturgy is united to Vespers for the feast of the Annunciation - this is the unique example of a "Vesperal Liturgy" using the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom;

b) The Orthodox Church permits, even encourages, the celebration of the Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts in the evening.

c)beginning the Divine Liturgy before dawn is normally restricted to Holy Pascha - a proposal (let alone a command) to do this on a frequent basis is unsupported by the Typicon.


In none of this do I take issue with what is, I trust, Bishop Tikhon's fundamental thesis - that the serving of "Vesperal Liturgies" is indeed restricted to certain specific days and is not to be capriciously extended and that instead of dismissing the Typicon as "irrelevant" we should study and learn the Typicon, which has a great deal to teach us.

The problem in translating the Typicon is that this is the book which ties the other service-books into a unified, harmonious whole, which means that it is virtually impossible to translate the Typicon in the absence of a complete set of agreed English service-books.

Fr. Serge

Austin could have the liturgical hours and other prayers until they are established enough to have their own priest offering Liturgy. If they could get a deacon, they could have Typica services. They could also alternate with your parish, having Liturgy in Austin once a month and no Liturgy in Houston on that day, possibly during the week to inconvenience people the least. The frustration and desire to have Liturgy would push them to grow while the typica or prayer services would fill their spiritual needs in the mean time.

A Vesperal Liturgy would be in the evening on the day before a feast day. It is done to end the current liturgical day with Vespers and to allow the next liturgical day to start. We all know that it is an aberration to routinely practice them. You said above that your priest prays the liturgy on Sunday evening in Austin after praying it on Sunday morning in Houston. He doesn't pray a vesperal liturgy, does he? That would make it a Monday liturgy.

You also said he uses vesperal liturgies for major feasts during the week because of the need for an evening time. He could pray a normal liturgy on the feast day itself in the evening, celebrating the day's vespers after the liturgy. With it being summer, it is still bright out at 7 PM.

These suggestions are different, and I am not sure if they are currently supported by our typicon, but they aren't unfeasible and fill all of the needs you have raised. They are ways to deal with these issues which adhere to our tradition.

Generally, we do have have DL on the actual day of the feast, in the evening, and it is not a Vesperal Liturgy. However, since we did have DL for Ss. Peter and Paul last night, it was a Vesperal Liturgy. The reason for this change is because our pastor and the pastor of the parish in Dallas only recently began serving the mission in Austin. The suggestions you have made are worth consideration. However, which week would inconvienence people the least? I have a difficult time applying that concept to the notion of depriving people of communion. Why should the parishioners in Austin be able to attend DL only once or twice a month, simply because they are still a small group? When will a priest be provided for them? Six months? A year? Or will this arrangement with priests from Houston and Dallas continue indefinitely because they are willing to do it and it is convenient for the Archeparchy? I don't mean to dismiss your concerns about faithfulness to they typicon, but I disagree with your assertion that that your suggestions address all the needs I have raised because I don't think provided people with DL only one or two Sundays per month is adequate for nurturing their spiritual growth. Having the Liturgy of the Hours is a wonderful blessing, and I, for one, wish that we would pray the Hours in preparation for DL at my parish in Houston. However, for me, it is not a substitute for weekly reception of the body and blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

Ryan

It would only be a temporary situation while they grow. How many of them are there and how long has the mission been there? It doesn't sound like long. How far does your priest travel? It wouldn't be feasible to continue serving them in the long term if they don't grow large enough to warrant a parish community. I think it only takes 30 people. It isn't depriving them of the Eucharist, it is supporting them with the prayers of the Church until they are established enough to have a priest able to celebrate the Eucharist. That there are two priests serving them is a real blessing which should provide them with many more opportunities!

Does your parish have a deacon it could send down there on Wednesday evenings to celebrate a typica service? If so, they could also receive the Eucharist on a weekly basis. Or your priest could celebrate Liturgy on Wednesday with them while you have a reader's service or an akathist in Houston. This isn't ideal for anyone, but it is transitional and it is reality. If they are so small that they can't support anything more, it isn't a replacement for them to pray the hours together until they grow. It is the way our entire Church was grown in this land!

No, we do not have a deacon. And I still disagree. We'll just have to disagree. In my opinion, Eucharist once a month is not adequate-period!!! And the fact that it has been done this way in the past does not persuade me to the contrary.

Ryan