www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Another "restored" translation

Aha! Thank you, Jeff, for that little catechesis. It does make more sense, even if a bit grating to my ears, at least at present.

Psalms 110 and 111 are paired alphabetical psalms. Together they are a paean to the wonders of Creation. They are traditionally sung at the eating of the Paschal lamb. Some teach that Jesus led the disciples in singing these songs before they went out in the Garden after the Last Supper.

One could argue for an adjusted use of those sense lines for the saint of the day, in male and female terms, and be all right in terms of meaning and tradition in the typical common of saints.

But to use it in that way in the divine liturgy may not be such a good idea, in that the divine liturgy really is for the communion of the faithful, and the reference should be to all of humankind, and evocative of the patriarchal and paschal references of the Psalms from which the lines come.

So in this case it may not be so much wrong or dangerously misleading, as it is a weak approach to what should be a powerful and evocative small hymn of anamnesis.

We are still a patriarchial people, as well as a hierarchical Church. One should not try to erase that reality but smudging the words. Primarily because it cannot be erased. We are what we are.

Blessings,

Mary

While the above statements are true, my question is whether such a Christological interpretation is intended or warranted here. The response is a direct quote of the Greek from the LXX of portions of Psalm 117:26,27. The first phrase is also directly quoted from the LXX in the NT: Matt. 21:9; 23:39; Mk. 11:9; Lk. 13:35; Jn. 12:13. Certainly in the context of the entry into Jerusalem the "He" is Jesus. Taking the above explanation, "The Lord (= Jesus Christ)":

Blessed is He (Jesus Christ) who comes in the name of "The Lord (= Jesus Christ)."

The beginning of the second sentence is where the conundrum especially lies. It is in the Greek and Hebrew (the Slavonic of the recension follows the Greek) either a "verbless sentence" -- perfectly acceptable in Greek or Hebrew -- or it is not. That is:

LXX: THeos kurios
God Lord

MT: EL YHWH
God Yahweh

We might be tempted as English speakers to go by word order:

God is Lord.
God is Yahweh.

Yahweh, however, is a proper name so, Yahweh is God. The convention in Greek is that word order usually conveys importance but the subject is denoted by the definite article, which in this case, just to keep things murky, is absent.

Both forms, God is the Lord, The Lord is God, are found in standard translations.

Finally, has THeos Kurios "revealed Himself to us" or, as a translation of the LXX has it, "has shined upon us."


If that is not complicated enough, the old translation "God the Lord" could be supported by the only other occurrence of this form, Josh 22:22.


Dn. Anthony

I have a different problem with this. It surely sounds like the substitution of "into" with "in" is grammatically incorrect.

I always picture a new model car called, for example, a "Chrysler Kingdom". "Remember me when you come in your kingdom." The word "into" does not have this problem.

Nice.

This topic was recently touched upon in a programme on Ancient Faith Radio [ancientfaithradio.com] (but don't recall the programme name). If I recall correctly...

When these words were uttered by the 'good thief' he meant when Christ came into His Kingdom (where He was soon heading, so to speak).

As Christ has risen from the dead and ascended into heaven, He is already "in" His Kingdom. In light of this we pray that He remember us when He comes 'in His Kingdom', i.e., when he returns in the full glory of His 'Kingship'.

Dear Recluse,

On the other hand, this is quoting Luke 23:42, for which the RSV has "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power" - and the old Orchard commentary has "the Good Thief asks no more than than Jesus will not forget him when he comes as Messias in the glory of his kingdom."

If the sense of the passage is that Jesus is returning in kingship and glory, rather than that he is making a royal entrance into an existing kingdom, then "when you come into your kingdom" might actually be less accurate. In modern English we tend NOT to use "kingdom" as a syn. for rulership (except in the Lord's Prayer!), whereas this sense was much more common a century or two ago.

Jeff

This is all very nice, but it ignores the import of Jesus's reponse.

Clearly the Kingdom is already with the Good Thief.

The Realized but un-Recognized Eschaton.

When you come into your Kingdom...is indeed the most faithful to Scripture and revealed eschatology.

Mary

I shall side with Mary on this one.

Good, because Mary was coming to remind you that spiritual warfare requires dying for the faith, not killing for it!!

We die so that we may live again.

If there is violence in its earthly material sense, it is not for the Christian to exercise it.

M.

Yes. I am aware of the that. Our violence is a spiritual warfare against the passions and the various logismoi that attack us on a daily basis.

_________________________
Glory to Thee, O Lover of Mankind

I presumed you know.

You were playin' around with the word.

I was just playin' back!!

M.

You see what I did. I was responding to your "violence" post in the other thread.

Cross-eyed!!

M.

Is this so? I have it as:

RSV Luke 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

And even:

NRSV Luke 23:42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."


Some others:


DR Luke 23:42 And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.

ESV Luke 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

KJV Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

NAB Luke 23:42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

NAS Luke 23:42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"

NIV Luke 23:42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

NKJ Luke 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."


The Slavonic and Greek liturgical texts apply this in different ways that are intriguing. The Greek (Rome, 1950) omits the "when you come" and there is only one petition.

The Greek has the preposition en rather than eis so one might conclude in rather than into, but the majority of translations are favoring en=into.

What is the intent of the prayer? Are we quoting scripture or modifying the intent to the present situation? Or do we quote scripture "rigorously" and then apply it - know how it applies -- to the moment?

A more drastic and clear-cut example as I recall it, from the Roman Mass, before Communion, using:

RSV Matthew 8:8 But the centurion answered him, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant will be healed.


OLD/Latin: Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof...

NEW: Lord I am not worthy that you should come to me...

And alterations in both at the end of the prayer (servant becoming soul or I).

Dn. Anthony