www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Implementing the New Liturgy: how we are doing it.

I'm going to say my piece and go...
I've been a cantor since the age of 17 when I was taken under the wing of the late Professors Frank Kostelnik, and Michael Kurtz. I've followed the direction of my pastor and I have learned this RDL. I have, at his direction implemented it to the point of completion two weeks ago.
I cried after a liturgy for the very first time. I watched people closing the books, then closing their mouths, until the only sound was my priest, myself, and no more than 15 people participating... the other 90 just stood there... going through motions, silent.
Am I resistant? perhaps, but I am following directions like a good do-bee.
I have a few questions that I would like answered...

To the Heirarchs: WHAT were you people Thinking? Did you honestly believe that ramming this down people's throats was a great idea? That the backlash would just be a few moans? I must admit.. I honestly DO pray every day that God intervenes and Rome Slaps SOMEBODY upside the head for this travesty that's being called a REVISION.

To the Translator(s): Can you PLEASE explain to me just WHAT you were translating from? I've spoken to no less than 4 Native Rusyn speaking old world Cantors/immigrants who have seen the revisions and really can't figure out where you got your translational skill since apparently some of the phrasing used it STILL wrong.

The Music.... I'll leave my comments out on this topic other than to note that if it was sought to leave the liturgy completely devoid of any spiritual emotion.. it succeeded.. and don't even tell me that you get out what you put in. You need to have something to put it in to get anything out.

Don't bother challenging me to a duel at 10 paces.. I've spoken my piece, and as soon as I can find an Orthodox church that suits me... I'll be going there.. Maybe they need a cantor who loves the liturgy as much as I did.

Unless it's an ACROD church, brace yourself! I'm still trying to get used to the OCA music. But I take comfort in the fact that I get the full liturgy every Sunday that the revisionists in the BCC seem to feel that their faithful don't need. Hospodi Pomiluj!

A reply to the Topic..


Physically:
Our pew book holders don�t fit two, so we have books on the end also. It�s not as clean looking as it once was.

Communication:
We use the standard ECBulletin service, and on the back page above the weekly colored box there is a list of Pages/Tones for the Liturgy.

Implementation:
More or less, as soon as it was "official" (I think early January) our Priest started to post same parts of the changes in the weekly bulletin. He hosted a few meetings during the week to help facilitate also. After a month or so, we started to use the new books on Sunday. Unfortunately, the (former?) cantor (who happens to be my Great Aunt) started to pick out new tones which we, the parish, wasn�t ready for. So not only did we have to change the words we where taught to pray, but as well as the melodies. This, of course, didn�t go over well, so our Priest brought in a paid professional cantor, which in return insulted our (former?) cantor and she refuses to sing IF the paid cantor is there. She still does so on the weekdays.

The paid cantor takes five minutes to jibber-jabber in front of the parish and tries to help us along, but she has no Byzantine experience and sometimes chants the wrong response and often blows into a pitch-toner (or whatever they are called) before starting. She uses an answering machine which we can call and listen to the upcoming weeks Tropar/ Kontakion.

As for the tones, we have also picked one tone for the whole Liturgy (Tone A) and are trying to master that before we embark any deeper. So many changes have overwhelmed us as a whole. More often then not, we sound like a chicken with it�s feathers being plucked out ready to be boiled without first being dispatched!

The Fallout:
The (former?) cantor, as far as I know, is the only causality of war which our parish can claim. She still attends, but doesn�t chant. There are rumblings within the oldest generation of my family (whose parent�s where founding members back in 1915) of leaving for one of the local Roman Catholic Parishes, but it hasn�t happened yet. Although, when it was announced of the changes, we had one semi-regular Roman Catholic guest to seem VERY concerned and hasn�t been here in months. A direct result? I don�t know.

How is this working:
The glass is half-full/half-empty. I think, as most people do, it�s ironic that the Byzantine Faith claims to be �Deep in Tradition� while it changes the translation in such a manner that those who where born in to the Faith stumble along now. It�s been a good six months and it�s still a mix of ..

�When you shall come into your Kingdom�
�When you come in your Kingdom�

..and the creed itself.. Well we start off good, BUT, Tone A has a physical page flip and it throws us off each time and the stumbling resumes.

St. Michael Toledo [stmichaelstoledo.org]

I find it amusing that any of us who comment upon the musical settings in terms of their emotional content are told that we don't understand the heart and soul of our eastern Chant because we do not understand the dour nature of eastern music that is alien to the western ear.

I've listened to Greek Chant, Lebanese Opera, and African and Asian music for over 40 years, so my ear has no western "expectations" that over-ride all else.

Some of our current settings, the selection and the adjustments, are horrid at a very visceral level and the people will react to them, and they won't sing them, and good cantors will adjust those which cannot be avoided, once again...if there's still a Church around to adjust in.

What a waste.

Mary

That is the one million dollar question!

In our Church when we sang the liturgy (A) for the first time we pretty much all sang. The cantor told us which pages to mark before the liturgy and we turned to them. We did not have much problem. This, however, is the midwest. The difficult thing is the change in the words. In one year it should all work out.

How many people go to confession each week in the Church that closed its books? Sanctity is the point, not auditory pleasure. No, people don't believe in confession any more. (I know that this doesn't address the complaints listed but if no one's going to confession than all the pretty music in the world is nothing but a superficial exercise in self-absorbtion in the worship of the great ME that Americans are so good at.)

The angry tone of some of the criticisms and complaints [as opposed to the spirited critiques proferred by Elijahmaria/Mary], the threats to leave, the refusal to learn the music, remind me of a comment I made to a bishop about the nuptial relationship between a priest and the Bride of Christ, the people.

In a spritual sense, the priest, in the person of Christ, is married to the Bride of Christ, his church. I asked the bishop, "What if a seminarian learns that his bride to be is a screaming shrew who can never be pleased? Wouldn't it be best if he ran away?" The bishop laughed.

Those who do not participate in the beautiful sacrament of confession, must examine their consciences. Grace will bring them back. You are correct--that is irrelevent to this discussion.

As far as this reform: I have been a musician for 38 years. I can read music. In my opinion, the changes were unnecessary. It is too complicated for a Church who had the old tones written on their hearts. It has nothing to do with refusal to learn.

As far as your accusation of threats: Those of us who have had their consciences pierced by this poor and inclusive reform, have lost a sense of peace. Yes Rufinus, externals and internals are important. We are a physical and spiritual people. Beisdes, who would be threatened by my conversion to Holy Orthodoxy--certainly not our reformers!

Recluse,

I couldn't agree with you more that the external and internal are important. Your loss of peace is evidence of this.

The quote I gave from "The Way of a Pilgrim" was not a generalized comment of my opinion on Old Believers. It was only, as you noted, to remind us that BOTH the external and internal are important. Indeed, both are one. (This quote always bothered me, by the way. Somehow, I think the distincition is philosophically faulty.)

I was going to follow up this up with a post of how chant unites the external and internal into one in the act of praying the psalms - how the intellect and will become united by chanting. I was then going to use the writings of the Fathers on the self-disciplining of the passions as being uniquely effected by chanting in the act of prayer. The moderator and others, however, seem intent on using any discussion of chant as a means of challenging the RDL. Thus, any pedagogical discussion of chant is thwarted. I also was interested in the experiences people had - which were their favorite chant forms, etc.

I wrote a nice long bit on this but the forum is closed. I shall hold what I wrote "in pectore."

Although I share your concern about the inclusive language, I found great comfort in seeing that the psalms were protected from this. You may want to wait to see how the new Orthodox study bible turns out before you make your decision. I think that you might be mistaken to think that any denomination is protected from the use of "vertical inclusive language." I haven't looked into this but keep your eyes wide open.

I highly recommend the website "ancient faith radio". You might like it.

Above all else - pray, pray, pray. Stay close to Jesus. He will help you. I will pray for you tonight.

Rufinus,

Beautiful post. I think I owe you an apology.

Would you please write and publish your reflection?

I think it could be of use to many.

Mary

Thank you Rufinus. You have certainly identified my problem. I cannot delve further into the internal, if I am not at peace with the external. The language and new music does not give me peace, and so I must be in a place where I can recover that peace. I have been praying for discernment for a very long time (since well before the promulgation). Again, I appreciate your prayers. I will pray for you also.

Recluse

Mary,

Thank you for your kind post. Ouuuu! I nearly withdrew from the forum.

I will put my reflections on another forum to protect it from the outbreaks of sectarian violence of this forum. It's quite long. So, I am trying to break it up into three or four sections. I keep finding quotes.

As to your questions about certain words, I recognize the immense amount of research that must be done to answer you. It isn't just a matter of looking something up. It is really a matter of gaining first the way of thinking about the world that people had long ago. For example, I do not think anyone can spout off without looking the definition of the "soul." Nor, can people explain the differences between the following words - substance, nature, essence. This requires an understanding of the metaphysics of Aristotle, Plato and the medieval philosophers. It really does require a new way of thinking, an experience which is most akin to learning and understanding the concept of limits in Calculus. I trust that the Bishops and the Vatican are much more capable than I in addressing these issues. So, I trust them.

Your questions, however, give us an opportunity to learn. I stay out but read with interest forums like "anaphora".


Rufinus

It is good that you stayed. The fathers often recommend remaining in charity...



To speak of "sectarian violence" is a little too strong for what goes on here. It's like my son wailing "Mom, stop screaming at me!!" ...when all that I was doing was disagreeing with his desire to do something that was not permitted.

You might say that some of us are most disagreeable, but I don't think "violence" tells the tale accurately.



My good guess is that some of the issues that have been brought to light here which have some strong theological substance were not discussed here or in Rome. You see, many things can slip under the radar when there is no one there to challenge.

The Latin rite is clear example of that happening, over and over again. Only when it became abundantly clear that the local bishops were NOT going to manage the liturgical difficulties on their own, but only add to them, did Rome then step in and mandate change.

So your assertion about bishops and Rome is clearly some idealized version of reality.

Besides, many of us have provided historical commentary and Scripture to support our contention that there's a "new" theology for this new Byzantine order. And many of our priests recognize those problematic "moments" in the liturgy as well and will be avoiding error, which is their responsibility as priests.



I have been most grateful for the help of one of our ordained men in the Metropolia in keeping my comments on track and adding substance to the position which I believe is the most accurate and the one most faithful to Scripture and Tradition.

I am very glad that you have changed your mind about writing your reflection for us.

Mary

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.



______________________
Glory to Thee, O Lover of Mankind

I am aware that there are some parishes which have not yet instituted the RDL and others which have not yet purchased the books (whether for monetary or other reasons). Tomorrow is the imposed deadline. Does anyone know if there are repercussions for those parishes not in compliance?


_____________________________
Glory to Thee, O Lover of Mankind

Yes, several churches in several deaneries of the Archeparchy have not purchased them yet. Just as there are many parishes that hold daily Divine Liturgies during Lent and refuse to hold Presanctified Liturgies during the Great Fast, this will be another mandate that won't be fully enforced, so it seems.

Ungcsertezs