www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What would you say?

Friends,

I have a serious question -- although I will not give any names or place markers, this is a question that has arisen out of a situation confronting one of my dear friends.

This particular person is Eastern Catholic but is caught in the situation where there is no nearby Eastern Catholic Church to attend. Being pious, this person attends the nearby Latin Catholic Church for Mass. On the way out of Mass recently, the priest of the parish was waiting for my friend and pulled my friend aside. In essence, my friend was confronted by this priest and told to stop acting "Eastern" during Mass. My friend was told to stop making the sign of the cross in the "Eastern" way, told to only make the sign of the cross at the beginning and end of Mass and not when the name of the Trinity is mentioned, was told that my friend had to genuflect before entering the pew, etc. Essentially, this priest said that my friend had to confirm in all externals to the Latin piety. He even suggested that my friend should "pray" about not coming anymore to Mass.

Would should I tell my friend to do? At this point, my friend has just stopped going to Mass but given my friend's situation I do not think this is the long-term solution.

One more point: my friend has always been eastern Catholic and does not know (even if my friend wanted to) how to be "Latin" in externals.

I would present the priest with a copy of:
Eastern Catholics in the United States of America
http://www.usccbpublishing.org/productdetails.cfm?PC=163
which addresses the pastoral care of Eastern Catholics by Latin priests. If that does not move him from his ignorance I would write the priest's bishop and let him handle it. Suprisingly this usually results in a firm reminder from the bishop that Eastern Catholic practices are to be respected.

A letter to the eastern Catholic's bishop outlining the behavior of the parish priest with an appeal to the bishop to approach the priest's Latin bishop so that the Latin bishop might, as a good shepherd, speak to the parish priest and guide him in pastoring this eastern Catholic.

Would the eastern bishop be asked to process in Latin vestments in a Latin rite temple? I don't think so.

The parish priest needs some gentle tending, so that he may tend gently.

Mary

PS: I would have suggested that the priest be approached first, but the fact that he has suggested such a thing as NOT coming there to mass any longer is more than sufficient cause to move on to the appropriate hierarchs.

The priest's actions sound a bit harsh. Still I'd say that one should at least endeavor to act Latin during a Latin Rite Mass, just as Latins should try to act Eastern during a Divine Liturgy

I feel bad for your friend. The actions of that priest are atrocious. Is there an Orthodox church nearby where he could attend occasionally? At least he'll be comfortable in the surroundings.

Excuse me ???

I'm not Latin - why should I try and act as a Latin does ?

When in France I frequently find myself helping Latins who come to DL in the Ukrainian Church - I don't ask them to take on our external actions .

I will, and do, explain how to go forward for Communion [ that is certainly different for them ] I do explain that we normally Receive Communion standing. Neither I nor my SF expect them to cross themselves the 'wrong' way.

When at home we do have Latins who come to our DL - we don't expect them to cross themselves the way we do .OK they sit , and kneel as is their custom - but we don't say that is wrong .

We have our own identity and customs and mixing and matching does not work.

Yes the priest in question should be a bit more sympathetic - but I have had the same sort of reaction - and not only is it wrong it is also exceedingly impolite and will in time drive folk away.

Someone needs to read Evangelisation 100 - or may be the easy version of that -- aimed at toddlers in Nursery School

I'd be happy if the Latins could learn to act with reverence at a liturgy.

There is no reason for an eastern Catholic to be asked not to cross themselves according to eastern custom and to bow in reverence, or to be refused communion on the tongue, etc.

Mary

I did NOT suggest a mix and match approach ! When I attend Divine Liturgy at a Ukrainian Catholic parish, which I do frequently, I make the sign of the cross from right to left,and bow, kneel and cross myself as the congregation does. In short, though I'am Latin, I conduct myself in an Eastern manor of worship, when I'am in an Eastern church. The EC's I know, when attending a Latin Mass conduct themselves the same way Latin Catholics do. When in Rome do as the Romans, when in Constantinople etc. What's the problem ? I'm not disrespecting anyones traditions.

Has the priest discussed this with your friend previously? If this has been an ongoing discussion, what your friend's response was previously would be good to know.

If the priest just blindsided your friend with this, I would recommend that he go to another parish.

Since he is planning on worshiping there long term, I would have advised that some sort of compromise would have been wise. The priest obviously isn't interested in a compromise and is unwilling to meet your friend's needs as an Eastern Catholic. He needs to move on.

When looking for a new parish, I would encourage your friend to discuss how he is willing to make his worship less problematic for those who might be ignorant. Some ideas include his giving talks to various classes like Religious Ed, RCIA, Continuing Ed for Catechists, K of C, or other groups in the church. He could address it at a diocesan level and give those same talks to the seminary, pastoral groups, catechists, canon lawyers, or others. He could also consider adopting some of the Latin externals while worshiping with them. He could see about forming a group to pray some of the eastern prayers, like an Akathist dedicated to peace.

I would also encourage him to try to connect with other ECs in the area. Their fraternity will help him. They could meet for fellowship and prayer, and if there are enough they could look into starting a mission.

This particular priest certainly was in bad form if the report of the confrontation is true.

That being said, I think we should remember that it was precisely a question of ritual differences that gave rise to the well known adage, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Here is the origin: Saint Monica, the mother of Saint Augustine, was troubled by the ritual differences which existed between the church of Milan (where she lived) and the Church of Rome (which she visited). So she went to her bishop, Saint Ambrose, who advised her, "When in Rome..."

This is a truly kenotic, Christlike attitude. Why cling tenaciously to bowing when the custom in the church you find yourself in is to genuflect? Will it hurt you to learn different customs? I confess that find it distasteful when I see - and I do - Latins who have been members for many years in a Byzantine parish still maintain their own ritual customs and resist adapting to our customs. What are they trying to prove?

On this issue I counsel broadmindedness, in the spirit of Saint Augustine's rule: In essentials unity, in non-essentials, liberty, and in all things, charity.

Gabriel,

I thought the same thing to myself. I wouldn't be happy about a Latin who chose to worship with us long-term holding tightly onto the Latin customs. Then I realized a difference. The Latin in America will definitely have a Latin parish to attend, while this Eastern Catholic does not have one. Would I expect a lifelong Latin to give up all his traditions if his only Catholic choice was to attend an Eastern Catholic church? I wouldn't.

I would expect him to become more familiar with the externals and to hopefully make a good-faith effort to do what he was able to that wouldn't compromise his own faith practice. I wouldn't expect him to change wholesale.

I have been a Byzantine Catholic organist/choir director in a good-sized Roman Catholic Church for a number of years now. In fact, the local newspaper recently included us in a list of mega-churches in the area, right up there in size with the top ten including Protestants. I still bow instead of genuflect, and cross myself from right to left. Not a single person including the priests has had the first problem with it. If anything, it has kindled their interests and caused many to become more familiar with the Eastern churches.

Forgive me for being direct, but may I ask what a Byzantine Catholic is doing as an organist/choir director in a Roman Catholic church? How come you are not at you own church loving and serving the Lord? What if every Byzantine Catholic went to a Roman Catholic church? I would imagine that you will not be approached for doing things differently if you are helping out. The person mentioned in the original post attends because there is no Byzantine Church near his home and will probably not join the Roman church. This is probably why the priest is more hostile.

Do you invite those whose interest you have kindled to your own church to worship?

Eddie

Ed

I know byzanTN can answer for himself - but this is not really unusual

In the RC Parish I used to go to there was a lovely old 3 manual 'Proper' organ - and there really aren't many people who could play it .As a result we frequently had to borrow an Organist from another Church when ours were not available.

This can happen.

At the same time a lot of teaching can be done quietly.

Here my Church is a long way away - I have 6 hours on Sunday going there and back. If anything happened to my EC Congregation I would have to go RC - there is no other Parish in Scotland !!