www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Implementing the New Liturgy: how we are doing it.

OR in another scenario, a parish may find itself without the services of a priest for failing to comply. Food for thought.

Four parishes in a Central PA Deanery share one priest. Two parishes are served one weekend, the other two the following weekend. RDL is not a priority. If it was, at least two of these parishes would have recited liturgies. The would be an outrageous result of the RDL mandate.

Ungcsertezs

There was an analogous situation in the first year of the reign of Anne Boleyn's daughter Elizabeth. A certain Sunday was set for the mandatory use of the slightly revised 1552 Book of Common Prayer, replacing the Mass.

Several large churches in London and elsewhere continued to have Mass right down to the wire. The bishops and many priests - to say nothing of lay people - then withdrew from the "Church of England".

Fr. Serge

Well, I wish I could say to one and all, happy feast of the great apostles, Peter and Paul.

But for many of us, the date of June 29 has a bitter taste in our mouths. We've been praying that the bishops would come to their senses, and take back their letter of promulgation, admitting the many flaws and errors in the new books.

But, as we have seen in the United States, over the past decades, whatever else you want to say about our bishops, they will do anything but admit their mistakes. Maybe their hats are too tight, but they just won't admit to doing anything wrong, ever.

June 29th, a very sad day for our Church. But the bishops rise above it all, and just don't see the problems.

sigh,

Nick

Is it not because of bishops and/or the actions of the church in the past that our people found other churches?

Let's look at the ramifications of Ea Sempre in 1907 and Cum Data Fuerit in 1929...

Let's remember the immortal words of George Santayana: "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Rusyn31

An entire Orthodox church was started because of Cum Data Fuerit. (ACROD)...

For the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul, we sang the A series. Our cantor gave short simple instructions. "We're singing the A series and the propers are found on page 338. Put a ribbon on these pages..." Short, simple, to the point. The liturgy then began.

One thing became immediately apparent - the cantor had practiced a lot. His singing was strong, clear, and confident. His singing wasn't rushed. It was well paced. The Troparion, Kontakion, Magnification and Prokeimenon were perfect. Each note was carefully placed and sung. For the first time since our use of the new liturgy, he seemed to be unafraid to sing in a relaxed manner. (I sang along but was flat because of allergies.)

Our cantor's confidence created a calmness in the people. 30-40 of the 60 people kept their books open to the end and sang along. Our cantor took the creed at a moderate tempo that permitted us to keep up. I didn't know which Our Father we sang but maybe I'll catch this next week. The cantor is extremely important and our little Church in Indiana is very lucky to have this guy. He is shaping our attitude and probably doesn't realize how grateful I am for his rehearsing the music.

I prayed for everyone on this list through out the liturgy. I offered up with prayers my own mistakes and trepidation for the cantors of the BCA.

Do what I have done if you do not like the RDL (and I see that many of you DO NOT), start a petition to return.

I gave the RDL a fair shake, I tried the RDL. I did not like it one bit. This is not the Liturgy brought to this country by my ancestors!!! My ancestors are truly turing in their graves, along with Bishops Takach, Ivancho, Dudick, Bilock and Kosicko!

The only time I sang today is when we did Dostojno Jest in traditional Carpatho-Rus' Prostopinije!!!!!! Funny, there is not one #&$*% word of Slavonic in these great new books, yet the congrgation sang it better, stronger, and with more heart-felt feeling than the "forced RDL".

I only got to a portion of the congregation and already have 40 signatures. When I get a majority of parishioners (we have approx. 300 families, I will submit it to our pastor and tell him that the people have spoken!) It probably will not work, because of the authoritarian style reign of the bishops, but I must try, and if I fail, at least I spoke up for what I BELIEVE IS RIGHT!!!

I see people that are conforming because they say, "What can I do, I am just one person?" Wake up folks, this is just the beginning of the end! This is not Communist Eastern Europe when our Church was liquidated, you have a say in the matter! Is it not the Church of the people? Without the people, there is no Church!

One person who is in favor of the RDL asked if I went to the Archeparchial conferences and meetings on the RDL, and I simply stated, "NO. I didn't need to! Why should I go to a conference where they are going to dictate to me on how to pray and worship. It would have made any difference to attend because of the authoritarianism of the conferences." I further added that everything that I need to know about the Divine Liturgy I read in Msgr. Basil Sheregy's book, "The Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom." published in 1970 by the Byzantine Seminary Press. I knew Msgr. Sheregy as an Altar Boy and he was a great man! We need more people like him, and not those who conform just because...

My great-grandparents did not come to this country to compromise their rich Rusyn and Slavonic traditions, why should I?

There are two Ukrainian churches across different parts of the road where I go (McKees Rocks, Holy Ghost). Our ancestors made it a point to start and keep their own church, not conform to anyone's standards.

Sorry to say this, but bishops can be wrong as well.... Look at the bishops in Europe that tried to Magyarize, Ukrainianize and Slovakize our people (bishops of Mukacevo: Pocsy, Pankovic, de Pastelyi, in Presov: Toth, Valyi, Novak, Hirka, Babjak)...were they right in doing so, or was there another factor in this change after centuries?

Even in America, bishops have not always done the right thing, to say that they do just because they are bishops is not right. Do I need to reinform you about the American Roman Rits Bishops that have covered up abuses of their priests? Were they right in doing so?

In addition, was Bishop Ireland right when he scoulded St. Alexander Toth (an Orthodox Saint), who prompty became Orthodox and took 30,000 faithful with him? Were the Roman Rite bishops right for trying to Americanize and Latinize the Eastern Rite through the "Elko Reformation" of the 1950's? Was Bishop Elko right in accepting this "Americanization" by telling parishes to trash iconostas's and everything that defined our Eastern Rite?

I say pray for the people who do not want this RDL, they ARE in the majority. Pray that they have the fortitiude to continue to complain and fight this wrong!!!

Rusyn31,

Say good bye to congregational singing. Todays 'Rocks broadcast seemed as if only Fr. Larko and the cantor were singing the English parts. And yes, it seemed as if the parish faithful only sang the Slavonic parts.

U-C

I am listening to the Recording from St John's Cathedral in Parma at present and I will admit that at the beginning there certainly
was reasonable congregational singing at the beginning.

I will post my comments tomorrow .

Dear Rusyn,

I fail to see how the above post is on topic as to "What Are We Doing to Implement the RDL." Rather, it is "What Are We Doing to Undermine the RDL." There are other threads in this Forum in which you can continue your campaign to bring down the RDL. Speaking for those of us who are trying to make it work in our parishes, we would appreciate if you would kindly post such comments on those other threads rather than here.

Au contrair Sophia, we are implementing the RDL by trying to rid ourselves of it.

I do not want to undermine anything, I just want to keep what is rightfully ours.......what is being undermined is the integrity of the Carpatho-Rus' Prostopinije that has been handed down to us.

Who is we? Seems as if there are more against the RDL than accepting of it.

In addition, would the administrators of this bulleting board (mostly being priests) be accepting to allow a thread against the RDL?!?

Rusyn31,

In answer to your question, YES. This an open discussion section dedicated to discussing the topic of the RDL, not just one side of it.

Sophia is right though, certain comments on this thread are off topic and should be posted on the appropriate existing threads. Any further off-topic comments on this thread will be deleted.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Let me correct myself before I get even further in trouble...

...In addition, would the administrators of this bulletin board (mostly being either priests, other clergy, or those that do not want to upset the hegemony of the church and therefore do not want to make waves even though they really think otherwise) be accepting to allow a thread against the RDL?!?

If they will post a thread for those who want to show their extreme dismay against the RDL (without being deleted, unallowed, banned or otherwide), then post one.

It's wonderful to hear a parishioner acknowledge the time and effort of his cantor. Many people don't realize that cantoring is actually hard work. Leading is a lot different than sitting in the pews and following. It takes practice both at home and before liturgy, and it takes guts to stand up there, not always sure that what's going to come out of my mouth is what my brain is telling my mouth to sing!

And it's even harder when one of the people out front is singing something other than what's on the page in front of them or think they can continue to sing without a book at all. When that happens, I start questioning whether I'm doing something wrong, and that can throw everything off! For that reason alone, it might be a good thing that not everyone out front is singing yet. Hopefully, they are listening and absorbing the new music, and when they feel comfortable, they will join in.

At my parish we began implementing the new music as soon as it was promulgated and we received the books. We started slowly, with all Option A. But after less than 6 months, we have branched out into other options. I cantor our Saturday vesper/liturgy, and many of the people are regulars. They were already used to singing the samolahsen tones, so we now do all eight tones of the Our Father corresponding to the tone of the week. We can also do the podoben Tone 4 Our Father. A few weeks ago, we also began chanting the psalms/alleluias instead of singing aliturgical Eucharistic hymns.

I prepare small "bookmarks" (printed 8 to a legal size page) with page numbers/options and place them next to the pew books on the greeting table at the back of the church. Several people have told me they are quite helpful. Calling out page numbers is an alternative, but I find that it is more helpful for the people to know the next page number ahead of time and be prepared to join in immediately. This is especially true for the Cherubic Hymn. They can find the proper page while we're still doing the Litany, and then concentrate on actually setting aside "all earthly cares."

Based on my experience at the vesper/liturgy I cantor, I can say that our people ARE singing the new music - at least those who used to sing the old music and we're all getting stronger every week!