www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Motu Proprio - today (June 2)?

CNN just aired a story about the imminent return of the Catholic Mass in Latin . . .

I think in light of concern for the truly poor and homeless, as well as in consideration of James 2:2-4, which states, "For if a man with gold rings and in fine clothing come into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing, and say, 'Have a seat here please,' while you say to the poor man, 'Stand there,' or, 'Sit at my feet,' have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?" we have to be very careful about setting guidelines like some of these that have just been referenced. Telling people not to wear tattered work clothes, when for some people who really are poor and/or homeless may have nothing else, could possibly be sinful, in light of this passage from James. I think there's nothing wrong with asking people to be modest and respectful, but to insist that men wear "business" or "business casual attire?" I find this to be offensive. Having been raised in a rural, farming area, I can tell you that there are some people who possess no such attire, either because they are terribly poor or because they have no reason to have such attire.
Ryan

Ryan,

There is a difference between fostering a respect with suggested guidelines and requiring a standard with dress rules. I agree with you.

It seems it's the excesses that always cause the problem. I have no difficulty at all with jeans as long as they are clean and pulled up to waist level. But some of the halter tops and bare midriffs are not appropriate for any church, traditional or not. They are sometimes not even decent enough to wear to go out in public.

In the winter-time when I was serving into Toronto, a number of women who came via public transportation found appropriate heavy trousers a practical necessity because of snow, ice, and the bitter winds coming off the lake. One must take such things into consideration.

Fr. Serge

Something just dawned on me.

The MP will be released on 7-7-7. Coinkidink? I think not.

Gordo

Gordo,

Why not? I think it be better than having had it released on 6-6-6.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Indeed!

The church's website clearly said 'business attire' OR 'business casual attire'.

Some of the poorer members of our community wear the option of 'business casual attire' which is a shirt (no tie) and trousers which are not jeans. Most of all the men dress like this in the more casual summer months...For a woman 'business casual' might be a simple skirt. That isn't difficult to afford-- and I really don't think that is too much to ask.

For instance, when my son was home from college, and would come to church, I would tell him: just don't wear jeans, and wear a button down shirt, and he looked fine. He didn't own a suit or a blazer at the time.

Nice, clean and respectable (not rich, not show offy, not expensive, not fashionable) is a given in all Orthodox churches for Sunday mornings, and I don't think that there is anything wrong with a little clothing etiquette getting back into the Roman Catholic churches on Sunday mornings... and society in general, for that matter. Dressing appropriately is a sign of self respect that every American, rich or poor, had in the 1950's and early to mid 1960's, and which has been sadly lost since then...

Just some thoughts,
take them for what they are worth!

Alice (who is all for nice Sunday morning respectable dress, like in the good old days of 'your Sunday finest', but has worn pants and jeans at smaller evening services because I find no fun in fundamentalism)!

We often leave off the coats and ties here in the summer, since it gets really hot. Slacks and shirts sound fine to me. On Sunday mornings I am with the choir in the organ loft, which is a number of feet above the main floor. None of us wear coats or ties because that choir loft has a uniform temperature - hot in the summer and hot in the winter. I think the main point is that one does not need to dress extravagantly for church, just decently.

Alice,

Glad you liked the link. This is the sort of parish community that is really living out the Spirit of Vatican II in the Latin Church. Perhaps we will see more like this after 7-7-7?

And one does not need to shop at Needlessmarkup to find decent clothes for church.

God bless!

Gordo

As Pope John Paul II called for the Catholic Churches of the East to rediscover and return to their authentic traditions, practices and liturgies, Pope Benedict XVI has called on the Latin Church to rediscover and learn the source and traditions of its Liturgy.

This sends a clear message to the Latin Bishops who have permitted discrepancies in the normative Liturgy and in many cases outright silliness in the construction of new church buildings. The MP will not clean up everything wrong overnight - far from it. There will be bishops who resist and who will complain to the media. So be it.

The Liturgy is Christ's gift to us through His Church. It is the highest form of prayer - worship of the Most Holy Trinity. It must always be done with reverence, respect and awe. The MP gives back to us in the Latin Church the thousand-year plus treasure trove of hymns, prayers, propers and traditions that are authentic and beautiful and lift the soul.

I'm all for modesty and respectfulness in dress for going to church. However, when we post rules, particularly like those mentioned in this thread, I feel that I must reiterate that we run the risk of alienating those who are truly poor-those for whom buying an additional wardrobe of "business casual attire" truly would be a burden-especially if they might be homeless. I realize that so often it is the case that many people dress very poorly or immodestly for church simply because they don't care enough to make any more of an effort. I think it is fine for the priest to address this issue and ask such parishioners to show respect for the dignity of the occasion, as well as to take into consideration the sensitivities of those who might be offended by such dress. However, when you post rules instructing people what they may or may not wear, especially when it mentions prohibitions against tattered or soiled clothing, I think you run the risk of giving offense to the occasional homeless and/or abjectly impoverished person who might wish to come to DL or Mass. I think in light of the passage from James, which I quoted above, as well as the whole Biblical tradition concerning treatment of the poor, that's a risk I would not willing to take. It is my own opinion that to cause a person who lives in such circumstances of poverty that tattered or soiled clothes is all he or she may have to wear is a very grave sin that is highly offensive to our Lord.

Ryan

P.S.-this is just my opinion, and is no doubt a combination of the generation to which I belong as well as having been born into a farming family, but I disagree with the bias against wearing jeans to church. Several people at my parish, including my wife and I, wear jeans at DL from time to time.

Dear Ryan,

Orthodox monasteries in Greece are open to all...however, they too, have rules: NO pants for women, period. They are hardly being unfair to the poor, as the poorest of the poorest of the poor (peasants, farmers, shepards, etc.) have traditionally been those who seek their solace...

Rather than have anyone be turned away for not adhering to this rule, the monastics have sewn together, with their very, very meager means, pieces of inexpensive scraps of fabric into long skirts, and they hand them out to guests to put over their pants!I believe the Russian churches and monasteries do the same with head coverings as well. Where there is a will, there IS a way!

Alice

P.S. I think that we see each other's point, and that we are simply arguing to argue! LOL! Have a good night, dear friend!

As has already been implied, men (and probably women, although I've never had occasion to shop for clothing for women, so I can't claim to know) can usually find good value in suitable clothes with a bit of careful shopping. Most cities have stores which sell new but "out of style" clothes at bargain prices. Like many priests, I am not paid a high salary, so I long ago learned to take advantage of such bargains (I prefer a cassock to a suit, but I do have a good black suit of the best quality worsted which I was able to purchase, new, at an unbelievably low price).

Fr. Serge