www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Vesperal Liturgy broadcast

Besides, right now, the mission in Austin does not have its own building. The Maronite Church in Austin is graciously allowing the mission the use of its building. So, Fr. Elias from Houston and Fr. Philip from Dallas cannot offer morning liturgies for the Austin mission anyway (I forgot this when making earlier posts).

Ryan

Wondering, good points. I am once again reminded of our widespread misunderstanding of the eucharistic nature of the Divine Praises and by extension the entirety of the Church's liturgical tradition, the disregard for the venerable received tradition of our Church, and the minimalist tendancy to reduce our Christian participation to "obligation" and "Mass". The Vesperal Divine Liturgies are for specific festal times of the liturgical, and look towards the fulfillment of the festal cycle in Great Compline, Matins and the Divine Liturgy (no Great Compline for Holy Saturday), and were never intended to stand alone.

I think it makes more sense to have a parish celebration of the Divine Liturgy on Sunday afternoon if the priest has an availibility issue Sunday morning, and have the mission gather for Reader's Vespers on Saturday evening to celebrate the glorious "resurrectional transition" that occurs at Great Vespers, which is cheapened when stikhera and the Apostikha are omitted as in the current "Vesperal Liturgy".

As my good friends across the pond often say, this is indeed a "sticky wicket".

I have struggled with the questions raised by Diak and Wondering my entire priestly life. When I was ordained as an Antiochian priest in California, Vesperal Liturgies (on the evening before) were the norm for all great feasts. This is how I was trained to celebrate the feasts.

However, as I grew to love the cycle of services and to celebrate Vespers daily in my parish, I came to see that the Vesperal Liturgy cut that cycle short. In truncating the full cycle into an hour-and-a-half "greatest hits" version, the people lost a lot of theology (and hymnography). I therefore decided that I would not offer any more Vesperal Liturgies, but would offer Vespers the night before, followed by Matins and Liturgy the next morning. Of course, this meant that Matins would begin around 5:15am-ish in the morning so that Liturgy could begin by around 6:30am-ish and people could still get on their way to work by 8am-ish. I LOVED it! But it was a little hard getting my children to Liturgy each Feast My children tell stories of being loaded into the Van early in the morning and then put to sleep on the Church floor while Matins was being prayed. (My wife worked evenings to help support the family.) Although at this point, these stories have become part of beloved family lore, I must tell you that I was not always as spiritually prepared to serve Liturgy as I should have been after loading three young boys into a van, unloading them and then putting them back to sleep BEFORE the service began. (I would often start the trek at 3:30am as I lived about 35 minutes away from the Temple.)

However, as much as this helped to keep the Church's Cycle going, I slowly (I am a VERY slow learner sometimes) realized that I was the only one who was able to experience the Cycle. Some of my people came to Liturgy (usually I sang Matins by myself) and most of my people came the night before to Vespers. No one, other than my boys asleep on the floor, was able to experience the full cycle.

I then had to ask myself -- what is best for the people? Is it best for the people to miss the Divine Liturgy for all of the great Feasts? Are they learning anything about the Cycle of Services by only coming to Vespers? Is the unity of the Community being reinforced by the separation of services? Would it be better for my people to celebrate together the essential parts of Vespers and Liturgy rather than having them celebrate separately pieces of it?

Of course, these questions have resounded in my head for many years and I still don't know that I like any of the choices. I said to our new deacon last night, "I wish we lived in a village and could all walk to church before walking to our jobs next to the Temple." I do know that since I am now older (and sleep far less soundly than I did as a young 33 year old), I can't IMAGINE doing the early morning routine like I used to! (I am sure my teenage boys would not enjoy it much either :D).

In other words, we are struggling in our modern world to find ways of living out our spiritual lives and helping each other live them out. As I look at the variety of ways in which Eastern Christians keep the fasts, celebrate the feasts, serve Liturgies, prepare for communion, etc., I can see very clearly that as an Eastern Christian community we are still figuring this out.

My suggestion is (and I have learned this experientially the hard way) that we support each other and give each other freedom to make difference choices as we struggle to find ways to be both contemporary and Eastern.

Father, your blessing!

Having done similar things as a layman with several children, I can understand and sympathize!

I think that, particularly for those places without a full-time priest, we would be better off trying to restore Vespers - Matins - Divine Liturgy on SUNDAY first, and that will lead the faithful to realize both what they gain by celebrating a feast-day Vesperal Liturgy, and what they lose. IF we can get to a point where the "one liturgy per altar" rule, and the ordinary scheduling of a single Divine Liturgy in the morning, are seen as normal and even beneficial, then

- places where a morning Divine Liturgy on feast days is impossible, will see a vesperal Liturgy as what it is - an extraordinary economia for the specific benefit of the faithful;

- places where a morning Liturgy on feast days IS possible may see more of the faithful making arrangements to attend. It will involve sacrifices, and some of the faithful won't be able to attend, or will choose not to, but by comparing the feast with Sunday they will see the basic pattern.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

The Bishops could clear this up immediately if they wanted to.

They have the fortitude to jam the RDL down the faithfuls' throat, but that fortitude is absent regarding Vespers and Matins?


Monomakh

Dear Monomakh,

Yes,they could. However, given the huge amount of flak they took in the late 1990's for removing the filioque, ordering communion of infants being baptized (and thus undercutting "First Communions"), ending "weekday Mass" during Lent in favor of the Liturgy of the Presancitified Gifts.... and garnered reactions that INCLUDED parishioners threatening to walk, or actually walking, because of those changes...

How many people have actually shown support for a return to our traditions when the bishops DID make them? Was there an upwelling of support, followed by encouragement for a more complete return to our older traditions? Or did they just continue to hear complaints from all sides?

Or will the bishops hear no words of support until they order an immediate observance of the full Typikon in all churches? And what is the likely parochial reaction? It bothers me immensely that most of my fellow vostochniki seem so unwilling to acknowledge anything good our bishops do.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

Jeff,

There are several parishes serving a daily Divine Liturgy during Great Lent and no Presanctified Liturgy during the Great Fast. That mandate is still being ignored.

Ungcsertezs

Dear Ungcsertezs,

I realize that, but it is not so long ago that that was the common practice - and it took episcopal pressure to change it in the average parish, at least in the Pittsburgh archeparchy where I was living at the time. I know quite a few layfolk who still complain about "their" daily Masses being taken away during Lent. My point is: how many bishops got any positive feedback for those changes?

Jeff

I believe there are parishes in Florida that have this practice. It's not just a Pennsylvania latination;)!

U-C

All the things that I have applauded over the years. However, the arrogance of the BCC bishops is unbeliveable. Just look at HT in Bridgeport, CT...it was probably one of the better parishes that gave support for these good changes...only to be spit upon by Bishop Andrew...

Chris

I was uneasy about the removal of the filioque and studied the issue and saw that it was a legitimate act, consistent with Church teaching and in union with Rome's desires for us. I didn't walk.

I loved the fact that my infants were communicated bedcause of the great grace they receive, because it was legitimate practice of our Church and because of a treatise I read on infant baptism by, of all men, St. Augustine.

The Presanctified is one of the most beautiful services I have ever attended. I loved it the first time I went. Apart from that, when I found out that Divine Liturgies weren't traditionally served daily during Lent and studied the issue, I accepted it and saw it to be fitting.

I supported these things wholeheartedly. But there is something else going on with the RDL and the lack of support for the Bishops.

If the Bishops had stuck to authentic traditions and not worried about who did or didn't walk, then they could point to ROME, THE FAITH AS EXPRESSED IN THE EASTERN CHURCHES, THE WRITINGS OF THE FATHERS AND REASON to show that what they did was right and good.

Now they can do none of this. They can, however, show that they have updated the Liturgy to modern times and like all such fads, the Revised Liturgy will fade away with the generation that created it.


The Bishops need not order an immediate obervance of the whole Typicon in all churches. But there is a serious problem when the Bishops mandate what's less and NOT IN ACCORD WITH TRADITION to the EXCLUSION of the fulness of tradition (the Creed is the simple and clear example of this poor judgment), and especially when what has been mandated has been made to conform to modernity which is the heresy of our times.

OK - watch this space for my comments from tonight's greatly improved broadcast of the Vesperal Liturgy from the Cathedral of St John the Baptist in Parma.

I really need to let it all sink in before I write

Thank you, Anhelyna - I tried to listen but never did get a connection.

Jeff

oh I had no problem tonight - curious.

It's all the nature of the internet...

In general:

I did actually have a chance to hear it "live" this past Sunday. It is dissapointing to me to hear the same somewhat bland "mic"-ing used which shuts out the other parishioners voices. It seems to me that that is the biggest dissapointment I have with the broadcasts, they sound like a half-hearted run through of the vesperal DL. Almost like sighing through the liturgy. Whether RDL or 1964 liturgy or Slavonic at least it should be sung from the heart with zeal and feeling. I almost get the feeling that they are doing the broadcast recordiongs "just because..." rather than with the zeal of evangelization. Different mic placement might solve some of the lack of ambiance.

The Lo-ho-ho-hord have me-rrrrr-cy though does get hard to listen to after a while, I say this constructively as a fellow cantor who DONATES his time to the parish to be a cantor. I say that with all charity as with very, very few, exceptions there are any regularly paid (stipended) cantors left in the BCC.

Just think. If ALL the BCC parishes of the Pittsbutrgh Metropolia were able to be heard online and compared....The noise of complaints from so many sides here on Byzcath would be unbearable!!! Perhaps were are blessed with only having a few broadcasts to sample from....

My $.00003.14159265358979

In actuality, it is good that there are people brave enough to try when so many are quick to complain.