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If anyone is interested in de Montfort's most important writing "Love of Eternal Wisdom" might I suggest this site:
http://www.catholicprimer.org/montfort/love_of_eternal_wisdom.pdf
Just check it out. There is no harm in reading it. I believe this work of the Saint's is completely in line with the spirituality of both East AND West. But I may certainly be wrong. It is de Montfort's central work, though not anywhere as well known as his other works. At least give it a chance. Maybe some of it will strike a chord.
Blessings! Silouan, Mary's monk

I am thinking of posting bits of it here and perhaps we could discuss it. What do you think?

Mary

Sure!

You knock out about 1/3rd, or even more, of the iconography of the Theotokos if you negate this role of her's in our salvation.

Mary

Dear Todd,

Making things into dogmas' is the Latin way. Not making them into dogmas' is our way...yet I find, that when I express my views, I'm being told that I am not following Orthodox teachings. Now I say this as one that has heard Orthodox teachings when I was young, and am now being confronted by some that tell me those are not the true teachings, (which I know they are), for who knows for what reason. One can only guess.

As for certain things being essential aspects of the faith, how can we possible say that the teachings of Saint Gregory Palamas, are not essential aspects of the faith?

But that's besides the point. I try to look at things from an all over viewpoint, so my point is, had the RCC not established dogma's, would it have been the Church it is today? What would have been the outcome had it not established the dogma of papal infallibility and the Immaculate Conception? Certainly these dogmas' were not made for the Orthodox world, since the two Churches were separated, nor for the Protestants, since they too were separated. They also would not have been made for the Catholic laity, since they would have listened to the Pope regardless of what anyone would say, so it must have been made to confront the Churches bishops.

Therefore, would the RCC at that time and place succumbed to the Protestant concepts that were creeping into the Latin Church through the magisterium? Now this opinion is only my own, formed through my own rationale, through my limited readings and knowledge.

I came to that conclusion, because I was quite surprised to see dogma's being formed that would hinder eventual union with the Orthodox Church, and couldn't help but wonder what was so important that these dogma's had to be established? Especially if one considers that Saint Thomas of Aquinas and Saint Katherine of Sienna, both doctors of the RCC, said that our Lady was not the Immaculate conception, while certain Orthodox theologians of the time said she was.

And that brings me to the question, of why God can be so vague at sometimes, (as shown through saints), and yet so exact at other times about aspects of our faith that are not within our knowledge to know? Things such as the Immaculate Conception.

He keeps us spinning doesn't He?

God Bless,

Zenovia

Father Louis de Montfort and the Holy Spirit

THE LOVE OF ETERNAL WISDOM
PRAYER TO ETERNAL WISDOM

1. O divine Wisdom, Lord of heaven and earth, I humbly beg pardon for my audacity in attempting to speak of your perfections, ignorant and sinful as I am. I beg you not to consider the darkness of my mind or the uncleanness of my lips unless it be to take them away with a glance of your eyes and a breath of your mouth.

There is in you so much beauty and delight; you have shielded me from so many evils and showered on me so many favors, and you are moreover so little known and so much slighted. How can I remain silent? Not only justice and gratitude, but my own interests urge me to speak about you, even though it be so imperfectly. It is true, I can only lisp like a child, but then I am only a child, anxious to learn how to speak properly through my lisping, once I have attained the fullness of your age (cf. Eph. 4:13).

2. I know there seems to be neither order nor sense in what I write, but because I long so dearly to possess you, I am looking for you everywhere, like Solomon, wandering in all directions (Wisd. 8:18). If I am striving to make you known in this world, it is because you yourself have promised that all who explain you and make you known will have eternal life
(cf. Sir. 8:18).

Accept, then, my loving Lord, these humble words of mine as though they were a masterly discourse. Look upon the strokes of my pen as so many steps to find you and from your throne above bestow your blessings and your enlightenment on what I mean to say about you, so that those who read it may be filled with a fresh desire to love you and possess you, on earth as well as in heaven.

Admonitions of divine Wisdom
to the rulers of this world
given in the sixth chapter
of the "Book of Wisdom"

3. 1. Wisdom is better than strength and prudence is better than courage.

2. Listen, therefore, kings, and understand. Learn, you judges of the nations.

3. Hear this, you who rule the people and boast of the large number of nations subject to you.

4. Remember you have received your power from the Lord and your authority from the Most High, who will examine your works and scrutinize your thoughts.

5. For, though ministers of his kingdom, you have not judged fairly, nor observed the law of justice, nor walked according to his will.

6. He will appear to you terribly and swiftly, because those who rule others will be judged severely.

7. For God has more compassion for the lowly and they are forgiven more easily, but the mighty will be punished mightily.

8. God shows no partiality; he does not stand in awe of anyone's greatness, because he himself made both the lowly and the great and he is concerned for all alike.

9. But the great are threatened with greater punishment.

10. To you then, rulers, my words are directed so that you may learn wisdom and may not go astray.

11. For they who perform just deeds will be considered just and those who have understood what I teach will have a valid defense.

12. Therefore, desire ardently to know my words, love them and you will find instruction in them.

4. 13. Wisdom is resplendent and her beauty never fades. Those who love her will have no trouble in recognizing her; and those who seek her will find her.

14. She anticipates those who desire her and makes herself known first to them.

15. He who rises early to look for her will not be disappointed, for she will be found sitting at his gate.

16. To reflect on Wisdom is the highest prudence and he who foregoes sleep to possess her will soon be given repose.

17. For she goes around seeking those worthy of her, graciously shows her ways to them, guides them and provides for them with loving care.

18. The first step, then, towards acquiring Wisdom is a sincere desire for instruction; the desire for instruction is love; and love is the keeping of her laws.

19. Assiduous obedience to her laws assures a perfect purity of soul.

20. And perfect purity brings one close to God.

21. Thus the desire for Wisdom leads to the everlasting kingdom.

22. If then, rulers of nations, you delight in thrones and scepters, love Wisdom and you will reign eternally.

23. All you who rule over the peoples of the world, love the insight given by Wisdom.

24. I will tell you now what Wisdom is and how she came to be. I will not hide the secrets of God from you but I will trace her right from the beginning. I will throw light upon
her and make her known and not hide the truth.

25. I will not imitate the man consumed with envy, for the envious have nothing in common with Wisdom.

26. Multitudes of wise men will bring salvation to the world, and a prudent king is a strong support for his people.

27. Accept, then, instruction from my words and you will draw profit from them.

Preliminary observations

5. I did not want, my dear reader, to mingle my poor words with the inspired words of the Holy Spirit. Yet I make bold to offer a few comments:

1. How gentle, attractive and approachable is eternal Wisdom who possesses such splendor, excellence and grandeur. He invites men to come to him because he wants to teach them the way to happiness. He is for ever searching for them and always greets them with a smile. He bestows blessings on them many times over and forestalls their needs in a thousand different ways, and even goes as far as to wait at their very doorstep to give them proofs of his friendship.

Who could be so heartless as to refuse to love this gentle conqueror?

6. 2. How unfortunate are the rich and powerful if they do not love eternal Wisdom. How terrifying are the warnings he gives them, so terrifying that they cannot be expressed in human terms: "He will appear to you terribly and swiftly ... those who rule will be judged severely ... the mighty will be punished mightily ... the great are threatened with greater punishment" (Wisd. 6:6,7,9).

To these words can be added those he uttered after he became man: "Woe to you who are rich (Lk. 6:24) ... it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" (Mat. 19; Mk. 10; Lk. 18).

So often were these last words repeated by divine Wisdom while on earth that the three evangelists handed them down without the least variation. They ought to make the rich weep and lament: "And now, you rich people, weep and wail over the miseries that are coming upon you" (Jas. 5:1).

But alas! they find their consolation (Lk. 6:24) here on earth; they are as though captivated by the riches and pleasures they enjoy and are blind to the evils that hang over
their heads.

7. 3. Solomon promises that he will give a faithful and exact description of divine Wisdom and that neither envy nor pride - both contrary to love - can prevent him from making known this heaven-sent knowledge, and he has not the least fear that anyone will surpass him or equal him in knowledge (cf. Wisd. 6:24-26).
Following the example of this great man, I am going, in my simple way, to portray eternal Wisdom before, during and after his incarnation and show by what means we can possess and keep him.
But as I do not have Solomon's profound learning or his insights I have less to fear from pride and envy than from my incompetence and ignorance, which I trust, in your kindness, you will overlook.

Others have mentioned St. Gregory Palamas' devotion to Our Lady, and I just want to say that I consider his homilies about her to be the best and most pure examples of Marian devotion I've ever seen. I've read very little of St. Louis' work by comparison, but from what I've read he and St. Gregory could have shared some wonderful conversations about Our Lady (and they likely do in Heaven)!

So, for the edification of all, but especially those of the East who might feel uncomfortable with St. Louis' devotion, let me quote St. Gregory Palamas'; I don't do this to take away from the main theme of St. Louis' work, but rather to highlight the connection with the Byzantine tradition.


It's a shame, because I believe that in a unified Church history we might very well be speaking about a common line of heritage in Marian devotion directly connecting St. Gregory and St. Louis. As it is, we can at least console ourselves that great Saints on both sides realized the importance of this devotion. Who knows, perhaps in the end this fact can actually serve to bring us closer together.

Peace and God bless!

One of the things that is healthy about a shared set of traditions is the fact that one can begin to see the moments of congruence over time and situations in the spiritual and devotional lives of the saints who founded certain practices or championed particular ideas in particularly beautiful and moving language.

There will always be the temptation to see deviance where others see congruence and that's all right too, as long as we don't get to accusing one another of objective evil or evil intent.

I am hoping to be able to pick up the thread of Love of Divine Wisdom in its own thread, in a week or so. Maybe you and monk Silouan can help me from being a lone voice in the wilderness...eh?

Mary

[quote=Elijahmaria]Dear Folks,

Many Catholics, baptised in the Latin rite, live out their spiritual and liturgical and ecclesiastical lives in eastern Churches. Many Catholics, baptised in the eastern Churches or canonically eastern, live out their lives in Latin rite Churches. We share a "common" set of traditions and many of our people are content in and with both. I think it is wrong to disparage that common history now that it is a reality in the lives of people and of the Church.

I totally agree with the above. I, for one, am glad to see you reopen the topic and am looking forward to learning about de Montfort Marian spirituality as it has always intrigued me but I have never really understood it. I would like to once and for all discern for myself if it is excessive.

I apologize for being too blunt with my opinions earlier. I have my reasons for believing what I believe. I also realize that my interpretation of another's writings is just that. I'm certainly not infallible, far from it. I know how fallible I am. I still have serious problems with de Monfort's writings, but I'm not going to spell them out nor get involved in turning this thread into a debate. There is nothing good that will come from it. Rather, let each read and determine, prayerfully, for himself. By the way, I did say that they "bordered on heresy" not that they were heretical. Granted, "bordered on heresy" is not exactly praise. But, I could be wrong in my interpretation and there very well could be something I've missed. So, do not let my comments deter those who have found Louis de Monfort's writings helpful and inspirational. My opinion is only an opinion, and it is not worth much. And certainly, I know that if, after I die, someone were to look up everything that I've written and thought, there would be enough to criticize to fill a large book.

Joe

De Montfort Spirituality
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.



On the occasion of the second millennium of Mary's birth, Pope John Paul II emphasized the importance of a true devotion to the Blessed Virgin. He singled out St. Louis de Montfort as a prime example of what this means.

He proposes consecration to Christ through the hands of Mary, as an effective means for Christians to live faithfully their baptismal commitments. I am pleased to note that in our own time, too, many manifestations of this spirituality and devotion are not lacking.

If there is one feature of the present Pope's pontificate, it is his emphasis on the need for devotion to the Blessed Virgin to stem the tide of global secularism in the modern world. It is easy to dismiss the Pope's Marian spirituality as a pious eccentricity. But Pope John Paul II is too intelligent and too experienced not to know that only supernatural means can halt the advance of unbelief in what he calls "the materially super-developed nations" in Western society. In one conference after another, in one document after another, the Pope insists: only a renaissance of Mariology in thought and practice can restore once Christian nations to their original commitment to the Son of Mary.

It is in this context that we should look more closely at the Marian teaching of St. Louis de Montfort. What needs to be underlined is what de Montfort calls the True Devotion to Mary.

There is no lack of Marian piety among Catholics today. There is no lack of books, periodicals, pamphlets and brochures on the Blessed Virgin. What Louis de Montfort emphasized 200 years ago needs to be clarified more than ever in our day.

In his treatise on the True Devotion, St. Louis identifies seven forms of false devotions to the Blessed Virgin and the false devotees of Our Lady. I would single out two kinds of spurious devotion to Mary to which, our modern age is especially prone. Says St. Louis de Montfort:

External devotees are persons who make all devotion to our Blessed Lady consist in outward practices. They have no taste except for the exterior of this devotion, because they have no interior spirit of their own. We have still to mention the false devotees of our Blessed Lady who are the hypocritical devotees. They cloak their sins and sinful habits with her mantle in order to be taken by men for what they are not.

Suppose we look at these two forms of Marian devotion which de Montfort called erroneous. They deserve all the attention we can give them if we are to hope for the transformation of the modern world, through Mary, which the present Holy Father is so earnestly advancing.



Interior Devotion
St. Louis warns Catholics against identifying devotion to Mary with outward Marian forms of piety.

Of course we human beings are a composite of body and soul. We are to externalize our practice of prayer. We are to use our hands and our lips and move our bodies when we engage in the Liturgy and in personal acts of piety. The problem, de Montfort would say, is that devotion to the Blessed Virgin consists in much more than these externals.

Interior devotion to our Lady means many things, but it means especially the imitation of her virtues, and among these especially her unshaken faith, her absolute confidence in God and her utterly selfless charity toward others.

UNSHAKABLE FAITH. Mary's faith was immovable from the Annunciation to the Crucifixion. She never doubted for a moment that the Child she conceived was her God. Elizabeth's greeting to her as, "Mother of My Lord" was an expression of Mary's own deep faith in the Divinity of her Son.

How many Catholics who say their rosaries and recite their Hail Marys realize that their most fundamental devotion to Mary is an absolute and unqualified faith that Jesus Christ is literally the Incarnate Son of God.

Reread the letters of St. John the Apostle who took care of Christ's mother after His Ascension. In one verse after another John tells us who belongs to Christ and who belongs to the devil. The one who belongs to Christ is the one who believes that Jesus, the Son of Mary is the Son of the living God. The one who belongs to the devil is the antichrist; he denies the Incarnation and rejects the Divinity of Mary's Son.

As we look at the modern world, we see that this is the heart of the crisis in so many dechristianized countries. Lip service may still be given to the Apostle's Creed. But, in practice, the Christ of the Gospels has been demythologized and become just another religious leader alongside Buddha, Mohammed and Mahatma Ghandi.

ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE IN GOD. Building on her unshakable faith, Mary trusted in God as no human had ever done before or since. Our boundless confidence in God is an essential part of our imitation of Mary.

She never wavered in her confidence that Christ would overcome the bodily death inflicted by His enemies. Since the first century, Saturday has been commemorated as Mary's Day. She alone among the followers of Christ was absolutely sure, during the first Holy Saturday, that there would be an Easter Sunday.

During the fifteen years that Mary remained on earth after her Son's Ascension, she saw the young Church persecuted, rejected and martyred. It was part of God's providence that she should literally mother the infant Mystical Body of Christ by strengthening the early Christians as they shared in the Passion of her Son.

How we need this Marian inspiration today! We are living in the Age of Martyrs with millions dying for their Christian faith, more than ever in the Church's 2000 years of history. Bishops and priests, religious and the laity, the married and the single, the young and the old must either practice something of the heroic trust in God that Mary had or become further casualties in the Christless cultures of the 20th Century.

UTTERLY SELFLESS CHARITY. It is not for nothing that Mary has been presented as the perfect model, after Christ, of selfless generosity to others. This generosity was deeply interior and was shown especially in her patient cooperation with Jesus in His Redemption of a sinful world.

Charity has many meanings. It has also been cheapened almost to no meaning among people who have made an idol of self. But one meaning of Marian charity had better be understood in our self-idolizing times. If we love someone we are willing to suffer for the one we love and with the one we claim to love. Christ's sufferings were brought on by the envy and malice of His enemies. This, in fact, is the principal meaning of the Passion. It is pain endured from hostile persons, whose hostility is the main source of suffering. What Christ experienced was not only or mainly the physical experience in His Body. His worst agony was rejection by those He loved and hatred by those for whom He was willing to die.

Mary shared in Christ's Passion. This was her compassion, suffering interiorly as only the loving heart of a Mother could participate in the sufferings of her Child.

We hear so much nowadays about love. It has become almost a clich� for authenticity and even in Christian circles, a substitute for faith. But love on Marian terms is nothing if not patient endurance at the hands and eyes and lips and thoughts of persons whom we love but do not love us correspondingly in return.

Here especially, True Devotion to Mary is the imitation of Mary's loving patience with the persecutors of her Son. They are persecuting Him still in the person of His followers. And it is our privilege to follow Mary's example of utterly selfless charity in the practice of utterly patient love.

VIRTUOUS SINCERITY. St. Louis de Montfort stigmatizes certain devotees of Mary with hypocrisy. He says they cloak their sins with her mantle in order to be taken for what they are not. A great apostle of Mary, Padre Pio, claimed that the single most devastating sin of modern man is hypocrisy.

True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin dare not be a mask for sinful habits that are covered by a veneer of piety.

As we read the True Devotion to Mary we may be shocked by the strong language that the author uses to describe what he calls hypocrisy. However, we begin to see what he means when we read what Christ said to the Scribes and Pharisees of His day. He was merciless in denouncing their lives of pretense and their sham observance of the externals of the Mosaic Law.

All of this we can apply, with humility, to ourselves. Authentic devotion to the Blessed Virgin must be the expression of a life of virtue. In essence, devotion is dedicated love. Our love of Christ, following the example of Mary, must be real. This means it must be lived in obedience to His teaching and in the observance of His commands. Otherwise, it becomes a substitute for true devotion to Mary which means the true following of Christ.



Marian Synthesis
To understand the True Devotion, we must see it as devotion to the Incarnate God. Even de Montfort's idea of becoming a slave of Mary becomes intelligible only if it is understood as an expression of one's total consecration to Mary's Son. Our Christian dedication must be lived by "performing all one's actions through Mary, with Mary, in Mary and for Mary, so as to perform them more perfectly through Jesus Christ, with Jesus Christ, in Jesus, and for Jesus" (True Devotion, 258). Thus, the act of consecration composed by St. Louis is addressed to the Eternal and Incarnate Wisdom.

The bedrock of the True Devotion is the following of Christ after the example of Mary, as inspired by Mary and made possible by the graces she receives through the intercession of her Divine Son.

Dear Joe and Byzantina,

What wonderful notes! With grace, your notes provide a foundation for moving on with the discussion.

As with the language of st. John of the Cross, the language of Father st. Louis de Montfort causes difficulties for many, including this writer. And it takes time to see the good sometimes, and that is as it should be.

None of us truly become believers about anything of the faith overnight. The only thing that we can do instantaneously is offer a willingness to hear in our hearts, prayerfully, with the gifts of faith, hope and charity. And that is the example that the two of you set here. One could not, and should not ask for more.

If the faithful of Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church could offer just that much to one another consistantly, the schism would be over in a year.

Father Pat Gaffney is a de Montfort Missionary and he has a loving friendship with my own spiritual father, so I was introduced to St. Louis in a most auspicious manner.

My coming to know Father Pat, and his teachings on de Montfort, was at a time of great difficulty for me. It was clear to me that I had no adult version of marian spirituality and that my child's eye view was not going to help me very much in resolving a tendency to ignore the Mother of God as I returned to the Church. I had warmed a little bit to the idea of venerating the Mother of God through Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, but even then marian spirituality was still foreign to me, and I venerated out of obedience more than any interior love and affection.

I cannot say that st. Louis's True Devotion made all the difference in the world, but I can say that de Montfort spirituality took me another long step down the road that culminated in my eventual discovery of Our Lady of the Sign, and it was through that icon that I found my way to the Mother of God, as mother, and Queen of Heaven, whose own heart's desire I could share.

So I will be writing this week to Father Pat, who has been quite ill and weakened over the past few years, and see if I can get permission to use his teachings that are in the public domain already, in order to back up my own poor efforts in this discussion.

So please pray for Father Pat that he may have energy to continue his work in whatever way he is able, and do not ever hesitate in asking the hard questions. Hard questioning and disparagement are not the same thing at all.

In Christ,

M.

there is nothing intrinsically wrong with getting insights from other traditions, if it will help your walk with the LORD. I know Latins who use Icons in their devotional life, and I say the Hail Mary ( mode a la Latin). the problem as most know is that people sometimes forget that what they are doing spiritualwise has roots in the tradition differing from their own. the practices were not created in a vacuum, but have historical and theological roots as their bases. honor first your own tradition, and if you can get insights from another, great, but do things on perspective, be intellectual as you are spiritual, you ought not confuse things, then.
Much Love,
Jonn

Mary,

I could not have said it better myself, especially when the hard questions are phrased respectfully and without dogmatizing or pontificating.

As to St. Louis deMontfort's teaching, the first time I encountered "True Devotion" was in college and it did have a profound effect on me and helped me to challenge some of my assumptions about Mary's maternal role vis-a-vis the Body of Christ.

God bless,

Gordo

PS: I was looking for the act of entrustment I put together some years ago according to the texts of St. John of Damascus, but could not locate it. Here is another one I did some time back, that I still like to use:

Rejoice O Theotokos, and ever-Virgin Mary,
Full of Grace and Protectress of Christians!
You are the holy ladder by which Christ
descended to earth for the salvation of all!

As your sons and daughters we entrust ourselves to you
and to your mantle of Holy Protection this day.
We dedicate our lives to the Gospel of your Son,
Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Intercede for us with the communion of saints
That we may always glory in the Holy Cross.

- Amen

I agree with you John.

It seems to me that resolution to problems that occur, when one spiritual tradition has been exposed to another, comes in educating people rather than warning them off things.

I think there is a world of difference between removing pews from a Church in an "eastern" renovation and removing the stations of the cross from the same building if they have been used by eastern Catholics for more than one generation.

The spirituality of a family of people as in a parish ought to be allowed to have continuity as change occurs.

The idea that "change is pain" is a secular one and not one found in the gospels.

How we manage pain when it does come is certainly addressed by Jesus, but He does not claim it as a necessity, rather he encourages us to lay our burdens at His feet and walk gently in the light, and in His peace.

He offers no praise song for those who cause pain to others wittingly.

Mary

This is lovely. I would like to use it as well and will share it when it seems right to do so.

M.