www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall U.S. raids Baghdad slum; 26 Iraqis die

[b]U.S. raids Baghdad slum; 26 Iraqis die[/b] [news.yahoo.com]

By LEE KEATH, Associated Press Writer 29 minutes ago

BAGHDAD - Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki condemned a U.S. raid Saturday in Baghdad's Shiite Sadr City slum � a politically sensitive district for him � in which American troops searching for Iranian-linked militants sparked a firefight the U.S. said left 26 Iraqis dead.

[continued..] [news.yahoo.com]

The precis is clear but the article is all confusion.

The US says 26 illegal militia were killed as they fought in a battle and are willing to go on record
An Iraqi official not willing to go on record says 8 died and that they were civilians with 20 wounded
Local civilians say that the americans just started firing and that they didn't even fight back.

No matter who died and in what cause, they deserve our prayers.

I'm comforted somewhat that if the US account is correct, those who were killed were participants in the ugly ethnic cleansing so fashionable lately in Iraq and that at least they will no longer be dragging innocent civilians out to be killed in brutal, barbaric ways. If the Iraqi account is clear, I've no doubt that the Army JAG will investigate and put those responsible in prison, which is also something of a comfort.

We all need to use our best prudential judgment as to which side we believe. I think honorable people could believe either side given the facts available at this time. If there was an intense firefight, there will be vehicle battle damage and other evidence supporting that narrative. Evidence will eventually be gathered and a report made.

There is a propaganda war going on right now. It would serve the Church well to minimize the number of times we get fooled into participating. That makes for difficult work for all of us.

When the officials of the Iraq government start publicly criticizing those who are there to save their behinds, what are we there for, who are we helping?

Our enemies hate us, and our 'friends' hate us more.

"There is a propaganda war going on right now. It would serve the Church well to minimize the number of times we get fooled into participating. That makes for difficult work for all of us."

Or is it deeper than this? In reading about modernity, from the Enlightenment, it seems to be closer to spiritual warfare. It is like a tidal wave, which began with an earthquake in the hopes and aspirations of new science in the 18th century and it has only in recent years shown the total force behind the cultural rejection of God.

I think that is quite unfair as a characterization because we do not, in fact, know that the quote was accurate. When reports of 20 beheaded people end up being entirely made up in widespread AP and Reuters reports, I have little confidence in the anonymous comments of a supposed Iraqi official.

But even were the quote accurate, your characterization would not be accurate. Our enemies torture and kill us when they can, mutilate our dead, and rig them with explosives. How this statement denotes greater hatred than that level of pathology escapes me.

The US has made clear that if asked it will leave via statements from President Bush on down through military officers and diplomatic statements. Any Iraqi parliamentarian can introduce a motion requesting the US leave. Such motions have been threatened by individual parliamentarians but nothing's come of it and certainly nothing's passed. Why is that set of fully public and verifiable facts not dispositive of the Iraqi government's true feelings on our continued presence there?

Well, sure there is spiritual warfare going on. That's been going on since Eve was first tempted and I do not see any breaks in that coming up. Science, properly viewed, is the art of discerning what God actually set in motion with the events at the start of Genesis. There is nothing wrong with that, on the contrary. It is a noble profession to my view.

Certain atheists have taken to labelling themselves scientists and cloaking their atheistic arguments with the trappings of science in a sort of scientism. There is a great deal of work to educate scientists to the danger this perversion of science has for their own vocations.

"Science, properly viewed, is the art of discerning what God actually set in motion with the events at the start of Genesis."

Science proper is recognized by some scientists, but the word no longer has that meaning. Science cannot be spoken of with that meaning in mind without an explanation, if communication is the goal. The modern understanding of science is severely limited by materialistic ways of understanding what truth is.

If what is true is only what we can experience or know through our senses, then this modern idea of science is necessary. Modern science is an atheistic institution. For us to "educate scientists to the danger this perversion of science," those scientists in question would have a very wide chasm to cross if their understanding of science is ametaphysical.

It may depend on God's Grace, so our prayers would help. But I can see our rhetoric being dismissed quite easily if framed in a way you seem to be suggesting.