www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Diocese May Close Up to 48 Churches

http://www.cleveland.com/religion/p...living-0/1181032876194430.xml&coll=2

So, after all the liberating Vatican II changes, allowing altar girls, relaxing fasting rules, Saturday evening anticipated masses, etc. what do the reformers have to show for the mess that has been made.

And note that the closings are mostly in the inner city where most of the poor are. Out in rich suburbia there aren't any closings. So much for 'social justice'.

And don't think for one second that our Byzantine Church is not going to have to make the same tough choices. As I've written before, I've been to some of our churches with my young children and I've had people come up to me and comment that that was the first time that they've heard a child in church in years. Do the math, it's not hard to figure out what is coming.

Many have written here that many of the revisions of the RDL have been in practice for 50 years. What progress have the revisions given us? For the life of me I don't see a single leg that the revisionists can stand on and successes that they can point to. But, now we're going to revise even further and introduce inclusive language. Does anyone actually expect the results to be positive? A proactive and aggressive evangelization program is all but ignored. Can somebody point me to the plan moving forward now that the RDL is here? I'd love to know what it is. I would still disagree with the revisions of the past 50 years regardless of the results, but chopping up the liturgy, not having Vespers or Matins, Saturday evening anticipated Liturgies, etc. where has it gotten us? Where are the success stories?

Father Loya, the implosion part of your plan may occur planned or unplanned.

I don't know how all of this ends, but if the current course is kept, it doesn't end well.

Monomakh

I think it's time for each parish to not be owned by the Diocese...so that they can pay the bill themselves, rather than losing parishes due to losses of lawsuits because of some priest in OTHER parish committed sex abuse.

What do you think?

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Spdundas,

If you haven't already, read:

Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church by Michael S. Rose. It will answer a lot of questions about the state of affairs in our Latin bretherns' church.

If I wrote even a fraction of what is in the book my post wouldn't last here too long. The main thesis of the book is that the cause of the current priest shortage and clergy abuse crisis in the Church can be traced in part to seminaries and diocesan vocations programs that have failed to foster good vocations and have turned away orthodox seminarians over the last few decades. Once again the specifics of this is sickening and I'll let those who want more info to read the book.


Monomakh

I know in our parish there is ALOT of older people and not many young ones, and I am afraid of closure.

Hanni

Most inner city closings are as a result in a shift in the original immigrant founding population out of the inner city, or even the city, to the suburbs. Often the Latin parishes were founded based on ethnicity. In Milwaukee, for instance, St. Stanislaus, the Polish parish was at 6th & Mitchell, and St. Anthony, the German parish, was 3 blocks away at 9th & Mitchell. Both these ethnic groups have left the neighborhood. The current residents are primarily African-American (generally not Catholic) and Hispanic. The cost of maintaining and heating these century-old church buildings can be staggering. Most urban areas are facing similar problems.

What evangelization program that are you referring to is being ignored?


This idea does have some merit. Since a parish doesn't usually have the "deep pockets" of a diocese, there might be less incentive for a civil suit, or at least a smaller settlement or jury award.

On the other hand, allegations of sexual abuse often don't come out until years after the event, and the abuse may have taken place in multiple parishes, and the priest now has a new assignment where there are no allegations. Besides, asking the parishioners to foot the bill is like laying the blame on them instead of the hierarchy, which has ultimate responsibility for its priests.

And, of course, there are other reasons mitigating in favor of keeping ownership of church property in diocesan hands.

In my opinion, it will never happen in the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church or some of the liturgical protestant churches. Their entire ecclesiology is based on bishops, and the bishops will not willingly give up money or power. Also, given their model of ecclesiology and their faith that it is what the Apostles handed down to them, it makes a certian kind of sense.

Other churches -- congreational protestants, pentecostal, evangelicals-- have an ecclesiology based on the local congregation. In those churches, the local parish owns its own assets.

-- John

Monomakh and Hanni49er are telling the truth.

spdundas' proposal is how the Polish National Catholic Church operates. Given RC history in America where the bishops won this argument over property ownership years ago over 'lay trusteeship' I don't think RC or Eastern Catholic churches ever will go this route. That said there's no theological reason not to do it.

Wouldn't there be a reason to try to evangelize the blacks, are you kidding me?

This is one of the greatest evagelization opportunities (for Roman Catholics in this example) in the last couple hundred years and it's being thrown away.

By the way, last time I checked, the Hispanics that you note that are in the poorer areas, are about 99% Roman Catholic.





You're making my point. There isn't an evangelization program being enacted (by the BCA)!

Monomakh

The USCCB has been there, done that, and more.

The USCCB devotes one whole department for the African-American Catholics in the USA.

There are approximately 2.5 million African-American Catholics in the USA, out of 36 million. Less than 10% but, traditionally, they are Southern Baptists or Muslims.

For more information on African-American Catholics, especially the number of Bishops, priests, and religious:

http://www.usccb.org/saac/

http://www.usccb.org/saac/AfricanAmericanCatholicsintheUS.pdf

Bottom Line! You want a parish then make all the necessary sacrifices of time, treasure and talent to make it happen.
Dont leave it to a single man, be he deacon or priest or even lay administrator.
After twenty one years I have had enough of the laity whining and I say to them Sacrifice, Sacrifice, Sacrifice. Give at least the 10 % and + that I give financially to the Church and the 100% time, as to the amount of talent I give(lol) I will leave that to the Lord to decide.
Stephanos I

I think it an excellent idea!

The Roman Catholic church has had many different arrangements of ownership around the world. In some places the government has the title. In medieval Europe the large landowners owned the parishes and sometimes they were owned (and controlled) by monasteries, who treated them as we would regard real estate investments.

In the USA every attempt has been made to assure that the bishops have the title, and considering that the Pope has Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction it might be argued that "the boss" has an equal share in the titles. No bishop has the right to alienate church property (which is what would happen if a board of lay trustees were to accept title in the name of the parish community), only the Pope has that right.

The horses are out of the corral anyway. In lawsuits against any diocese such a movement of property might be seen as a way of hiding assets.

Many, if not most, Orthodox parishes in the USA are owned by the parishioners themselves, but I am not familiar with the legal technicalities of that. It is specifically because the Byzantine Catholic bishops were ordered to collect the property titles in the 1930's that a number parishes left for Orthodoxy. They did not feel comfortable entrusting their titles in the hands of the bishops and could leave with their temples because they controlled the property.

That situation does not exist anymore in the USA.

Michael

The immigrants to Cleveland built beautiful, European-like churches, that inspire & help build one's faith. After the arrival of cars and the flight to the suburbs, cheap chapels of convenience were built in the burbs.
Why is it that rural Catholics have to drive 20-30 miles to liturgy, but their urban counterparts do not have to? I think the burb churches should be closed.
Has anyone seen St. Stephen's church in Cleveland? The woodworking (from Bavaria) is out of this world! It rivals any church that I've seen in Bavaria.

-Wolfgang

this mis-managment of parish property in-addition with the clergy sex abuse is very shameful. With respect to the parishes of suburbia, they are like scattered sheep with no shepherd. The Bishop is supposed to oversee the parishes very closely and how can he when they are scattered like this? especially he is to oversee the priests to make sure they are in line. There are many factors why Catholics left their parish neighborhoods, but truly it was a mistake. These city parishes were beautiful, traditional, and even historical landmarks. These parish churches were the places perhaps our parents and grand-parents worshipped. The new residents of these neighborhoods, even hispanics are protestants. even worse, the parishes that remain were gutted out of its liturgy and sacred art to be made to appear as protestant. I believe these scattered archdiocesis are going to be reduced from the rank because all the parishoners are scattered abroad.

So go make one. You can't do it on your own? Ask for help. Try, measure results, use 2 methods in a 50/50 manner and then take the winner and split your effort 80%/20%. The 80% effort is using the method that currently works best while the 20% is experimental.

Don't imagine you are alone. You are not. Others will join if you ask.

it begs the question:are there resources, materials, etc. that will help Monomakh and others who are concerned about evangelism to make a coherent effort. you can't just expect folks to run will nilly all over town ringing doorbells or whatever in diffused and ineffectual efforts.Evangelicals hve resources, material, training, etc. so what about EC's, Orthodox and Latins? do any of us have what the Evangelicals have?
Much Love,
Jonn