www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Sacred Heart, a naturalist devotion?

I like to make a few observations on this thread.

First, this thread is way off topic, having almost no relevancy to the opening post. I suggest all reread the opening post in regards to what this thread is about.

Second, it seems that some of our posters are expounding to each other, but not reading what the poster they are replying to has stated previously. This is causing confusion, and it is starting to frustrate posters and readers alike.

Third and final, this is not a game to win adherents, but rather supposed to be an open discussion in order for different traditions of Christians to learn from each other. Forcing one's point across wins nothing.

I will now close by reminding all that if this thread can not get back on topic it risks being closed.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

sorry about that i thought i seen b c deacon by your name..maybe iwas seening things.....again sorry ,,,staislav

father bless im not trying to convert no body...im just stating one of the orthodox objections to this devotion...im going to leave...i dont want to put a phoney your all right im all right act..not when it deals with our salvation and walking the straight and narrow path,,,please cancel my account ...stanislav

Dear Stanislav,

In the Orthodox Church, we refer to the heart quite often. By that we mean the love that our heart represents. So frankly I see nothing wrong with Jesus' love being represented by a heart.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Stanislav,

You are free to stay or leave. The last 10-15 posts have little if any relevancy to the topic requested at the opening of this thread. My comments were made globally in general with no specific poster being singled out. That was what was being addressed, and I would suggest you reread the post I made. That was a point that also being addressed.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

true but we dont pull it out of the body...iv seen pictures of only the heart...christ is being seperated his humanity is being worshiped only not the whole christ....that is were the bible really mentions were the emotions are really felt not the heart...God is Great...stanislav

Now I am not an expert at devotion to the Sacred Heart - but I have been a bit familiar with it since a child. I think it is right that it originally came from an apparition in France. As a child I was aware that it was popular with French Canadians.

As to it being 'natrualistic' ....

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"Naturalism ... is any of several philosophical stances, typically those descended from materialism and pragmatism, that do not distinguish the supernatural (including strange entities like non-natural values, and universals as they are commonly conceived) from nature. Naturalism does not necessarily claim that phenomena or hypotheses commonly labeled as supernatural do not exist or are wrong, but insists that all phenomena and hypotheses can be studied by the same methods and therefore anything considered supernatural is either nonexistent, unknowable, or not inherently different from natural phenomena or hypotheses.

Any method of inquiry or investigation or any procedure for gaining knowledge that limits itself to natural, physical, and material approaches and explanations can be described as naturalistic."
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... it is almost the opposite of Natualism ... so whom ever is of that opinion is way off base. I always find it best to learn a foreign language from someone who actually speaks the language ... which means ... that if one wants to know about the devotion to the Sacred Heart - ask a knowledgeable Catholic ... instead of guessing.

The Sacred Heart is not a revelation (item of public faith given to the church). Sorry stanislav ... it is what is called a private revelation - meaning something given to an individual. As such it is not equal to church revelation and there is no requirement for anyone to put faith into it. I believe this particular private revelation was to a French nun. Her name is on the tip of my tongue. I read her book (she was under orders to record her apparitions). Very inspirational. Church authority investigated and found nothing wrong. Her journal was allowed to be published. The content was mostly ... visits from Our Lord in which he encouraged her to be a victim soul and by her fidelity to Providence many souls would be brought to ... the sacred heart of Jesus (which of course is symbolic for his great sacrificial love).

If 'the proof is in the pudding' ... her journal did just that (I believe it became as popular as The Imitation of Christ) and through its display of her own cooperation with Providence (despite hardships) it joined a number of books (at the time) which all pointed to the fact that personal holiness consists in a daily cooperation with the Will of God (manifested in the events of daily life).

The apparition of Jesus, to this nun, at times, was as the paintings depict. That is ... Jesus standing there pointing to his heart which is in-front of his chest and encircled with thorns and a flame on top.

http://www.www.allposters.com/-sp/Sacred-Heart-of-Jesus-Posters_i250492_.htm

The two fingers extended represents 'blessing' for anyone who comes to his sacred heart. The flame represents love for God (very much like St. John of the Cross describes the Living Flame of Love) the thorns represent that this love will not be easy and links our love for God ... with the sufferings of crucifixion. The blood is the blood that came from his side. And all this is mounted ... by the fact and event of the cross (crucifixion).

To a Catholic who is familiar with these symbols (and let us not forget that the Eastern church is also resplendent with meaningful symbols) - the picture (if it is painted true to the apparition) is a great poem of love. The love of God for us - the love of Jesus for his father and for his children (us) - and the invitation extended by God for us to join our own human hearts to the sacred heart of Jesus.

The heart - has always been symbolic of the true, deep, inner being of a man.

The devotion is a private or personal thing. It is not a part of the Catholic Church per se. I do not think you will find it in the catechism. But because it became so popular and wide spread ... and has such deep mystical meaning ... the Church accepts it as a private devotion that can be officiated (led) by a priest.

The goal (if we can call it that) of the devotion is to join ones own will - to the will of Providence - as Jesus always did - by the fire of divine Love.

Now ... addressing stanislav ... "ALL REVELATION HAS ENDED AT PENTECOST" neither the church of the West nor East - teaches this. You have misunderstood. The church teaches that the public revelation of the person Jesus Christ - closed - with the death of the last apostle. In other words it ended when the last apostle who directly experienced Jesus himself - died. At that event - nothing further could be told to us about what Jesus said and did and wanted us to know through the apostles.

God continues to reveal himself to individuals ... privately and in various ways. This he promised to do - and still does. Each one of us should experience (in the very least) a private revelation of Jesus Christ ... each time we partake in holy communion. Many of us join physically (eat the bread) but walk away without our hearts joined spiritually to his.

One should not confuse private revelation with public revelation (the teaching task of the Church). For example ... the private revelations that happened to Simeon the Theologian (of the East) should not be confused with or put on a par with the apostolic revelations that ... God is a Trinity, that there are seven sacraments, the Eucharist, etc.. etc.. but do notice that the church of the East has adopted Simeon and his writings (by declaring him a Theologian) and in that way has adopted Simeon's own experience of private revelation (as given in his writings and is foundation to all he wrote) as a teaching tool. As a matter of fact the private revelations to Simeon the New Theologians are raised much higher in the Eastern church than the private revelation of the Sacred Heart is raised to in the Western Church. I see no problems here.

And although Revelation (of the person of Jesus Christ) has closed ... the Church's understanding of that public revelation (meaning 'for everyone') does continues, develop further, deepen, and clarifies. If it does not - then the church - - - has died. It no longer lives. It becomes a statue and a corpse which once had life but has no life - now.

It is the same with Holy Tradition. One can operate under the impression that Holy Tradition - is something that happened in the far past. When in reality ... tradition continues to this day. What we do today becomes part of the continuing tradition ... into the future. Also ... one can mistakenly believe that the Tradition of the Church belongs only to the early fathers of the Eastern church who we have the writings of ... which denies any tradition to any other Church (of which there are several). For example - the Coptic Church has its own traditions. As does the Latin Church, the Oriental Church, Armenian, etc.. etc.. etc... and so when one speaks about the 'tradition of the church' or the 'holy fathers' one should specify ... which church? As the holy fathers of the Coptic church are different than that of the Byzantines, and from the Latin fathers. etc...

The only fathers which are common to the entire universal church - are the apostolic fathers (those who were appointed by - or had directly know - the apostles.)

If one recognizes the authority of the apostolic fathers (those appointed as bishops) then one must recognize the authority of the several bishops of the several churches that comprise the One Holy and Catholic church of today. Apostolic secession. The last bishop appoints his successor in office by whatever canon of his own church. Be they Orthodox, or Byzantine, or Roman, or Armenian, etc.. etc... . they ARE the current 'old time religion' as it exists - today. And so the past must be understood - through the church of today. Here. Now. As it is. Still alive.

And so fidelity to Christ (as regards church membership) consists of fidelity to whatever bishop and church - we are currently under. And mostly non-judgmental regarding the other churches of which we are not a member and unfamiliar with their traditions, and expression of theology, and devotions. As each church is a servant of Christ ... we have no right to judge another man's servant. There is a NT parable to this effect and I believe Paul states this very clearly. And so if we look at a devotion of another church and despise it ... it is the same as if our father had given a gift to our brother or sister - and we despise that gift.

This is the way I see it. I could be wrong. I only present this for your own consideration and thought.

Having said all that.... your own desire for happiness in God is very evident. May we all have this great burning desire .. and may peace be with you and your own Holy church.

-ray

Ray,
Do you mean Margaret-Mary Alacoque? I think that is her name.
Welcome back, Ray, hope all is well w/you. (Sorry I don't really have anything at all to say on the subject, but the name just came to me reading your post!)
CS

acually it did close at penticost..christ ascended to heaven to his father and my father did he not say i will SEND the HOLY SPIRIT THE COMFORTER To bring to mind everything he taught them,,thats why all scriptures has been written in a closed book..thought we also have the oral traditions..im not to familar with the sacred heart story ...i think it was pushed heavily pre vatican 11 after vatican 11 it was put on the shelf and pretty much fogotten,,,but fogotten things have a way of resurrecting ...its the apparition thats taking and claiming to be christ that really worries me alot...some of our eastern catholic brothers have accepted it ...it also the promises that are promised,,not in scripures thats closed..didnt the Divine mercy replace this devotion now...please some one any body write down for me the promises given by the sacred heart...and the Divine mercy.... the bless paul never seen jesus in person only as light and voice on the road to damascus...st.paul was actully lead and guided by the Holy Spirit in all truth..even to him the Holy Spirit revealed everthing jesus said did and taught..that was already known by the holy apostles that walked with jesus....
also the holy apostles filled him in...any thing the apostles did was inspired by the holy Spirit in setting up the church of christ... also good news to some of you this my last post,,going on vacation ,,,GOD BLESS EVERY BODY .. STANISLAV

God bless, Stanislav. Safe travels.

Here are some from a website which is dedicated to a modern revival of devoion to the Sacred Heart.

http://www.sacredheartdevotion.com/index.html



Of course, as with any devotional practices with "promises" attached to them, the interior dispositions of the practitioner are as important or even more important than simply the external fulfillment of the requirements. There is not some magic formula here where God sort of stands up in heaven with His SHD Checklist to see if you have fulfilled all of the external requirements of the devotion. Perhaps that sort of formalism or externalism defined much of the ethos of the devotion at some point for people, but it certainly does not appear to be the authentic spirit of the SHD based on just a cursory read.

Here are some of the quotes of the revelations that inform the spirit of the SHD:

http://www.sacredheartdevotion.com/loving_him.htm

To my mind, the call of the devotion is to be enflamed by love of and for God and neighbor and to see this love in its sacrificial context.

After all, love without sacrifice is simply appetite.

God bless,

Gordo

I thought that this Icon of Jesus with His heart containing the instruments of His passion and death sort of captures the appropriate spirit of the SHD. In a way, His heart in the icon becomes something of a Great Schema...the Holy Cross becomes a ladder of ascent and descent into the Heart of Christ, and the means by which He descends to the full depths of His own incarnational kenosis and assimilation of human sufferings in order to raise us up to glory through theosis. The wounds of His passion are glorified through the Resurrection and never leave His body, since they are the marks of His triumph. Could it not be said that the marks are also imprinted on His heart as well?

Gordo

[Linked Image]

Here is what Fr Michael Pomazansky says about the cult of the Sacred Heart in his 'Orthodox Dogmatic Theology'. To establish the context, I've started with the preceeding paragraph:

The One Worship of Christ

To the Lord Jesus Christ as to one person, as the God-Man, it is fitted to give a single inseparable worship, both according to Divinity and according to humanity, precisely because both natures are inseparably united in Him. The decree of the Fathers of the Fifth Ecumenical Council (the Ninth Canon against Heretics) reads: "If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in His two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other pertaining to the Man ... and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with His flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema" (Seven Ecumenical Councils, NPNF, p.314)

A Word on the Latin Cult of the "Heart of Jesus"

In connection with this decree of the Council it may be seen how out of harmony with the spirit and practice of the Church is the cult of the "Sacred Heart of Jesus" which has been introduced into the Roman Catholic Church. Although the above-cited decree of the Fifth Ecumenical Council touches only on the separate worship of the Divinity and the humanity of the Saviour, it still indirectly tells us that in general the veneration and worship of Christ should be directed to Him as a whole and not to parts of His Being; it must be one. Even if by "heart" we should understand the Saviour's love itself, still neither in the Old Testament nor in the New was there ever a custom to worship separately the love of God, or His wisdom, or His creative or providential power, or His sanctity. All the more must one say this concerning the parts of His bodily nature. There is something unnatural in the separation of the heart from the general bodily nature of the Lord for the purpose of prayer, contrition and worship before Him. Even in the ordinary relationships of life, no matter how much a man might be attached to another - for example, a mother to a child - he would never refer his attachment to the heart of the beloved person, but will refer it to the given person as a whole.

(pp 188-9)

Brigid,

But I have always understood the "heart" to be the point of integration - the Center of one's person. To say someone has touched my heart or wounded my heart means that you have touched or wounded me personally - in my center. In the case of Jesus Christ and the Hypostatic Union, the two natures are fully united in a single "communion" with a Divine Person. To refer to the heart of Christ does not in any way limit the devotion to a specific human organ (even though it may be expressed that way iconographically) or nature (as you quoted from the ecumenical council), but rather to His Personhood bound eternally through the Incarnation, Resurrection and Ascension to our human nature. The fact that His last act of kenosis according to divine revelation was the outpouring of His heart by the piercing of His side out of which poured blood and water is also significant, and harkens back to the Adamic covenant espousal imagery of Eve being formed from Adam's side. The heart of Christ is our source of origin as the Bride of the Bridgroom.

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has a marvellous series on the heart and personhood. The name of the series escapes me at the moment. I have listened to it several times and found it to be extremely beneficial.

God bless,

Gordo

PS: I will only point out that Orthodoxy knows very well the practice of devotion to the Holy Face of Christ. No one would accuse the Orthodox of somehow separating or fragmenting Jesus Christ because His face becomes the "object" of devotion. The face, after all, expresses the persona. The implication is that love of His face is love of His Person. I would argue that a similar case could be made for the "heart". In fact, in Orthodoxy, the place of the heart is extremely important in spirituality.

In case anyone is interested there is an article entitled 'Human heart and Sacred Heart: reining in religious individualism. The heart figure in 17th century devotional piety and the emergence of the cult of the Sacred Heart'.

The author sets the cultural scene from which the cult of the Sacred Heart emerged and there are some very interesting contemporary illustrations too.

http://www.enid.uib.no/texts/achen_1.htm

Dear Gordo,

I think Fr Michael articulated the Orthodox concerns surrounding this devotion. Orthodoxy does indeed have a highly-developed theology of the heart, but is it that of the Catholic cult of the Sacred Heart? I have to be honest and say that when I was a Latin Catholic I didn't have any connection to the Sacred Heart devotion, so it is not something I would miss or wish to try and integrate into Orthodox spirituality. Neither have I any wish, of course, to sneer at or denigrate the devotion or its followers. I do, however, feel that it is an illustration of the difference in approach between east and west. Whilst we may debate the theology of the heart as a general or ancient concept, we have to acknowledge that this devotion as it exists today emerged from a specific historical and cultural context in the west. I think the article I linked to earlier makes that context clear.

Brigid