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I have one question in all this discussion; didn't President Clinton lie under oath?
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That depends on what is is.
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Clinton is a CRIMINAL and his wife two and the both of them should be placed in prison! Stephanos I
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Clinton isn't a criminal yet, he hasn't been found guilty of a crime as far as I know. While Clinton's ethics and morality are repugnant, none of it has been found criminally liable in a court - unlike Mr. Libby, who has.
If either Mr. or Mrs. Clinton WERE found guilty and then commuted/pardoned themselves, would the reaction from the pro-Bush camp be the same as toward Libby? After all, the president has the "right" to pardon anyone - even himself...
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What politician isn't a criminal? I generally make the assumption that a politician is immoral and criminal until it is proven otherwise. In other words, for non-politicians; innocent until poven guilty. For politicians, guilty until proven innocent. Not the most charitable way of looking at things (call me cynical), but it seems to be realistic and Plato would agree. I just think that it is impossible for a truly honest person to survive for long in politics. Machiavelli would agree and he seemed to have good sense when it came to politics.
I am moving closer and closer to complete abstention from all political matters. Since, I have no influence anyhow, all I can do is try to be a decent person, pray, and take care of my family. Even my vote doesn't count (statistically this is true, no individual's vote counts). I'm beginning to like the Amish more and more in some respects.
Joe
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"Both parties and every intelligence agency in the world believed he had WMDs and collaborated with terrorists." And those same agencies urged for more time to investigate. Some would argue that since we gave Saddam Hussein a broad warning and timetable, he had time to arrange the transportation of some of his WMD.
We found some WMD in Iraq. We found chemical/biological capable warheads, we found saran gas and other agents, we found drones, and we found that Saddam had medium-range missiles which exceeded the UN Resolution requirements. But what we did not find were stockpiles of WMDs. The Chem-Bio warheads found in Iraq were gift from the USA from when Saddam was an ally. Those were almost all, if not all, expired with dead batteries and unusable. The saran gas was also expired and non-lethal. From While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible Indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad's desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered. Even President Bush admitted, " the chief weapons inspector, Charles Duelfer, has now issued a comprehensive report that confirms the earlier conclusion of David Kay that Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were there."
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And those same agencies urged for more time to investigate. The belief -- from the CIA, MI5, French, Russian, and Jordanian intelligence -- had not changed in years. If Saddam had not intimated that he had WMDs, not kicked out all the UN inspectors, not broken the ceasefire terms of the first Gulf War, or not ignored UNSC Resolution 1441's demand that he account for all his WMD material by December 2002 or face "serious consequences," his family circle might not be unbroken in Hell right now. ------- Western Orthodoxy Blog [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]
Last edited by Western Orthodox; 07/09/07 02:34 AM.
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Mr. Clinton was found civilly liable for lying under oath.
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I agree, that doesn't make him a criminal, it makes him a dirtbag. Libby has been found criminally liable, which makes him both a dirtbag and a criminal.
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Clinton isn't a criminal yet, he hasn't been found guilty of a crime as far as I know. While Clinton's ethics and morality are repugnant, none of it has been found criminally liable in a court - unlike Mr. Libby, who has. Dear Michael, Pres. Clinton was/is guilty of perjury...remember, 'I didn't have .... with that women'. As president though, he can not be brought to court. The understanding is that as President, he is basically our moral authority, (  ). Hmmm! Kind of like a king. God Bless, Zenovia
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Actually, wasn't Mr. Clinton "charged" with perjury and impeached, then "acquitted"? The "I did not have.." was in front of tv cameras, not a judge and jury - that perjury occurred later.
Also, if we "count" civil lawsuits as equivalent - Mr. Rumsfeld has been sued numerous times for violation of human rights and civil rights in connection with Gitmo - and our Supreme Court has sided with the plantiffs. Therefore, Mr. Rumsfeld is also liable, but not (yet) a criminal.
Mr. Libby on the other hand is a criminal.
As to the infamous Clinton pardon of Marc Rich - guess who Mr. Rich's lawyer was - I'll give you two guesses...
That's right - Scooter Libby. Ethically impeccable and politically oppressed victim that he is, he knows all the right people.
Last edited by Michael_Thoma; 07/10/07 01:31 AM.
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I have decided that with both administrations there should be a plague on both their houses, and may their dwellings be turned into dunghills. I love the powerful way the King James phrases things. 
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Libby judge speaks: Libby judge 'perplexed' by clemency
His 30-month sentence was appropriate for the former Cheney aide, he writes in his first public comments on the issue. By Richard B. Schmitt Times Staff Writer
5:14 PM PDT, July 12, 2007
In an unusual expression of frustration, the judge who sentenced former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby to 30 months in jail, only to see the sentence commuted by President Bush, said he was "perplexed" by the act of clemency.
In his first public comments on the matter, U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton took issue with Bush's statement that the prison sentence ordered for Libby last month was "excessive." Walton defended the sentence, saying that he followed established legal precedents as well as a strict interpretation of federal sentencing guidelines that has been supported by Bush's own administration.
"In light of these considerations ... it is fair to say that the court is somewhat perplexed as to how its sentence could accurately be characterized as 'excessive,' " Walton wrote.
"Although it is certainly the president's prerogative to justify the exercise of his constitutional commutation power in whatever manner he chooses, the court notes that the term of incarceration imposed in this case was determined after a careful consideration of each of the requisite statutory factors."
The judge, who was appointed to the federal bench by Bush in 2001 in part because of his tough law-and-order approach to sentencing, made the comments in a lengthy footnote to an order issued Thursday.
Bush intervened in Libby's case July 2, hours after an appeals court refused to allow Libby to remain free while he appealed his perjury and obstruction of justice conviction in the CIA leak case. Bush commuted the jail sentence but left intact a requirement that Libby serve two years' supervised release and pay a $250,000 fine � which Libby has since paid.
In his order, Walton cited several legal precedents supporting his sentencing ruling, including a decision in June by the U.S. Supreme Court in a case known as Rita vs. United States. The high court ruled in that case that a sentence that did not depart from the sentencing guidelines was inherently reasonable.
The 30-month sentence for Libby, Walton observed, was at the low end of federal sentencing guidelines. The Bush administration and the Justice Department, he pointed out, have been strong proponents of those guidelines for judges, which are supposed to ensure that defendants in federal cases receive similar sentences for the same crimes.
"Indeed, only recently the president's attorney general called for the passage of legislation to 'restore the binding nature of the sentencing guidelines so that the bottom of the recommended sentencing range would be a minimum for judges, not merely a suggestion,'" Walton wrote.
He also questioned whether Bush had the constitutional power to order the supervised release without sending Libby to jail. The form of probation, according to the law, is supposed to be reserved for persons after they have served time.
"The president has effectively rewritten the statutory scheme on an ad hoc basis to make the punishment created by Congress applicable to a situation that Congress clearly did not intend," Walton wrote.
While the pardon powers are broad, "it is far more unsettled ... whether the Ppresident may transmute a duly crafted form of punishment into one that is expressly proscribed by statute," the judge wrote. "The court concludes, with great reservation, that it does not" offend the Constitution.
Walton ordered Libby to report to the federal probation office "with all requisite haste." He noted that if Libby failed to comply with any condition of his supervised release, he would be sent to prison.
Like other criminal defendants, Libby may not leave the judicial district without the permission of the court or probation officer. According to court papers, he "shall work regularly at a lawful occupation," "refrain from excessive use of alcohol" and "not associate with any persons engaged in criminal activity," among other requirements. He is also required to perform 400 hours of community service.
At a news conference Thursday, Bush acknowledged publicly for the first time that someone in his administration perhaps leaked the name of former CIA officer Valerie Plame to the news media � an act that launched the criminal investigation that resulted in Libby's conviction.
"And, you know, I've often thought about what would have happened had that person come forth and said, 'I did it.' Would we have had this, you know, endless hours of investigation and a lot of money being spent on this matter?" Bush said.
"It has been a tough issue for a lot of people in the White House, and it's run its course, and now we're going to move on."
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"Actually, wasn't Mr. Clinton 'charged' with perjury and impeached, then 'acquitted'? The "I did not have.." was in front of tv cameras, not a judge and jury - that perjury occurred later."
Charged by the House and acquitted by the Senate. The perjury was for statements made before a grand jury.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I remember.
Terry
Last edited by Terry Bohannon; 07/13/07 12:37 PM.
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Clinton isn't a criminal yet, he hasn't been found guilty of a crime as far as I know. While Clinton's ethics and morality are repugnant, none of it has been found criminally liable in a court - unlike Mr. Libby, who has. Dear Michael, Pres. Clinton was/is guilty of perjury...remember, 'I didn't have .... with that women'. As president though, he can not be brought to court. The understanding is that as President, he is basically our moral authority, (  ). Hmmm! Kind of like a king. God Bless, Zenovia No the theory argued by White House counsel at the time was that a sitting president shouldn't be called to a civil case while in office because the duties and responsibilites of the president of the United States require that he not take time away for non-essential, personal legal issues. White House counsel never argued that Clinton (or any president) had sovriegn immunity for personal civil cases. They only argued that those cases should be deffered until after his term in office was ended.
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