www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What would you say?

I attend Mass or Divine Liturgy, depending on whether I attend with my husband or not.

When in Rome, I personally prefer to say do as the Romans do if you feel comfortable. Cross yourself like they do. When in the East, Cross yourself the "better" way. Even my husband, rabid Roman that he is, will Cross himself Eastern style (and many times) while worshipping in a Byzantine church.

I was in a Benectine monastery's church where an Orthodox monk was a guest; I noticed he Crossed himself the Roman way once the Mass started, although he Crossed himself in in the Eastern manner while he was saying his prayers beforehand. I was in a Ukrainian monastery's church where a Franciscan friar was a guest, and he Crossed himself in the Eastern way and kissed the icon. He seemed to be a little awkward in following the Vespers, but like most Franciscans, he was having fun trying.

I do not think that the priest in the original question should have approached a parishioner and sought to force his or her hand to Cross in one direction or the other. Priests need learning experiences just like all people. A nicer thing would have been to ask about the visitor to his church. Of course, nothing stops the visitor from talking to the priest about his or her situation.

I "slipped up" once during a Roman Catholic funeral and I guess acted a little too Eastern and Crossed myself the "correct" way and a little to frequently and the priest rather pointedly looked at me when he said "only Catholics in a proper state may come to Communion." Most of the people in attendance were Protestant. Yet, his remarks were directed at me, a Catholic. Even worse, this was in Pennsylvania, where there are many Byzantine Catholics. Later, I made a point of politely explaining things to him; he had never seen a Byzantine and only vaguely remembered such people existed and he was very, very apologetic.

I agree with the "When in Rome..." philosophy. Mainly out of respect for the congregation.

It has also occured to me from reading this thread that there are quite a few priests out there that put too much importance on the way people are crossing themselves. We all cross ourselves for the same reason, whether it is from right to left or left to right.

Is it not a good thing to hold to your traditions ?

It is possible to be discreet

When we lived in San Antonio, the closest Byzantine Catholic service we could attend was the (Ruthenian) Austin Mission parish, which had a liturgy only once a month.

Luckily for us, the RC Church we attended the rest of the time had a Polish-born priest who understood immediately when we approached him about our son receiving Communion. It was never a problem.

Replying nearly at random to several things in this revived thread:

My understanding is that in the Roman Rite, a profound bow *is* the same act as genuflection, and always an appropriate substitute to genuflecting. This came as I spent a year drafted to teach fifth grade n a catholic school (a story in and of itself, or many of them . . .) and expressed some concern, as I was to read and my class sat on the other side of the church. I was a bit concerned about genuflecting with no pew to brace myself upon (my knees sometimes needed support. They seem much better now that I almost never have cause to genuflect .

I was appalled when someone back in Pennsylvania approvingly told of a prior Monsignor who had refused to attend the consecration of the Byzantine church in DuBois, rejecting them as not being Catholic.

When Bishop Pepe (RC) attended Fr. Marcus' ordination a year ago, neither Bishop Willam (BC), Fr. Vovona (Greco-Italo-Albanian, head of his Rite in the U.S. part of William's diocese), nor ano of the assorted others seemed to have any objection to his crossing himself Latin-style. Although he sat outside the iconostasis for most of the liturgy, he was invited to join in the anaphora, with Fr. Stephen, Bp. Williams pro*mumble*, helpfully whispering to him. [It would be tough to find a Byzantine in southern Nevada with an ill word to say about Bp. Pepe].

Does anyone know of any Roman parishes where the entire congregation actually stands during all of Communion according to the changes of a few years ago? [In Pennsylvania, the directive sent down really did sound like "This is Communion! Stop praying"]

And just this morning, Fr. Marcus reminded us about hospitality to visiotrs and evangelization, returning when welcomed, etc. (not due to any particular thing; just a reminder. But then, well under half the parish is actually BC--we have Melkite, a couple of orthodox, a couple of UC, and tons of latins--in fact, the entire ECF staff is actually RC!)

hawk

fr. m

Privately, sure. But when in another's church one should try to respect local custom. I think my ROCOR/ROCA friends would find it rather odd (if not disrespectful) if I were to kneel for the consecration at their Divine Liturgy. I always make the sign of the cross the Eastern way in an Eastern Rite Church...

However, I think the rules are different for visiting clergy "in choir" where they are supposed to respect their local customs insofar as they conform with the rite being used.

The priest mentioned in the original post handled this poorly, though.

fr. m.:


Father bless!!

I grew up not far from Dubois and if you tell me the time frame I can almost guess who this man was. It might be the same man who refused to do any of the liturgical changes. This latter priest received a newly ordained man who was completely unnerved to learn that the new liturgy was not used in the parish and that the altar was not even turned around. He called the bishop and told him he hadn't been trained to work in the situation he found himself. So the bishop called monsignor and said, "I'm not asking you to change; I'm telling you to change."

Sadly some people just don't "get it." There's a joke about Heaven that this reminds me of and I'll type it out and send it to you when I get a chance.

In Christ,

BOB

Since I love to blend into the crowd and not appear to be "standing out like a sore thumb," I like to sit in the rear of any new church I enter and observe what the regulars are doing and follow along, taking their lead. Since my work takes me to lots of churches, synagogues, and other religious sites, I find that it is probably the best way to go. Aside from that, people appreciate it when you honor them by observing their customs. It takes nothing from my own faith practice to make the Sign of the Cross as my brethren in the Eastern Church do, or to don a yarmulke in a synagogue or to act as an usher in formal Protestant churches where such a custom prevails that no one takes a seat unless ushered or dismissed after the service. People are important and honoring them and their customs is an important part of my faith practice and who I am.

My two cents worth.

BOB

Here's a statement I wrote some years ago when I managed a funeral home. Every employee that reported to me had to read this every morning when he reported to work--it was under the glass on my desk. This flows over into everything I do.


PEOPLE ARE IMPORTANT

People are important to a service business.
We are a service business.
We are in business to serve people.
People are not an inconvenience for us, they are the reason we are employed.
People are the reason I have a job.
People are the reason I get up in the morning.
Every customer/client/person who comes through the door is important. I always have time to stop what I am doing and speak to them, answer their questions, serve them. If I cannot offer this, I will always get him/her to someone else in the company who can.
Every customer/client/person who comes through the door deserves to be treated with respect, consideration, and kindness.
Every customer/client/person who comes through the door deserves to be greeted with enthusiasm, a smile, and my best English.
Every customer/client/person who comes through the door deserves to be served with the best effort that I can muster: 110% worth.
Every customer/client/person who comes through the door deserves to leave here with the best service we can muster as a team.
We want every customer/client/person who comes through the door to leave here with the impression that he has received the best service that can be had in our industry in this area. In other words, no one does it better than we do.
No one.
We want every customer/client/person who comes through the door to leave here knowing that he has received the best service that can be had in our industry in this area. No one does it better than we do. No one.

Customer service is not lip service. It is what we do.
People are our business; they are our only business.

If I didn�t want to serve people this way, I�d have gone to work elsewhere.

WOW--that is really beautiful and meaningful, and so is your previous post. Respect for others--there is nothing more Christian than that.

In Christ,
Alice

ALICE:

I've wondered how different things would be if this "People are Important" were modified to fit our parishes.

People are important to Christ.
We are part of Christ by our Baptism.
We are here to serve people and bring them to Christ.
People are not an inconvenience for us, they are the reason Christ has called us to be part of His Body, the Church.
People are the reason I was baptised.
People are not an inconvenience to me when they ask questions about the Faith or why I believe what I do. If I cannot answer their questions, I will find someone who can.
The gifts and talents God has given me are gifts to be given to other people to draw themn to Christ and to enrich their spiritual lives as well as my own.

etc.

In Christ,

BOB

An interesting comment. But I have to say, and probably not by intention, the Holy Spirit is left out.
We must never forget it is the Holy Spirit who uses people. Sometimes we do not even know the how or why.

Halia12:

Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!!

I didn't mean this to be a finished thing. I was just starting to wonder about it and how it might be translated.

How about some editing? Go for it.

In Christ,

BOB

The only Eastern custom I can think of that would be viewed negatively in an RC church, would be if you returned from taking communion and stood instead of kneeled, and obviously that could only occur during part of the year. Other than that, I doubt anyone would have a problem with making the sign of the cross differently, or bowing instead of genuflecting. I know of many RC's including a couple of traditional priests, who due to knee problems, arthritis, etc bow instead of kneeling.

Or as Father Zugger from Albuquerque told in a story:

One of our parishioner's daughters crossed herself in the Eastern fashion with the rest of the class at the local Latin diocesan school.

The nun leading the prayer corrected her, "No, dear. Cross yourself like so."

"But I'm Byzantine. We cross ourselves this way." said the girl.

"Well, not here you don't." replied the nun.

"I don't know. Father always says, 'Byzantine Rite. Roman wrong.'" answered the girl innocently.

Father received a call from the nun the next day.