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"Or the howling from many Eastern Catholic bishops when the new Eastern Code was promulgated"

One of the features of howling would seem to be loud and public. I can find no record of these howls.

Olga

These last two posts are very interesting since they express world views clearly American.

I remember during the '60's and '70's American professors commenting on the what they saw as the imminent "Americanization" of the Islamic world and the concomitant demise of traditional Islamic culture and religious "fanaticism." Well, if the march of history just happened to be purely linear, their speculations (and that was all they were) should have come true, but they were obviously wrong because real history has a nasty habit of progressing by ebb and flow rather than linearaly.

When the glow of contemporary western culture dims in the east, look for a strong revival of pan-slavism in the traditional slavic Orthodox countries, as well as a strong revival of Hellenism and Hellenic Orthodoxy among a disaffected younger generation of Greeks. History can repeat itself.


BTW: Modern communication technology also provides Orthodox patriarchates and bishops, as well as the Church in general, with the ability to communicate with the faithful on an unprecedented scale.

b.




[This message has been edited by bciulllp4userscommunity (edited 07-06-2001).]

>>>One of the features of howling would seem to be loud and public. I can find no record of these howls.<<<

The Melkites howled long and loud; the Ukrainian howling was more muted. But howl they did, particularly in regard to the marriage regulations.

names of bishops, date, places, documents? Or is this howling by hearsay?

b,

"Just like the majority of Christians everywhere, the majority of Russian Orthodox are more concerned with life at the parish level than with what is happening miles and cultures away...and that is a blessing."

That is a great blessing. There are a lot of difficulties at the parish level in Russian Orthodox churches in Russia. Everyone here should be praying for the health of the Russian Orthodox Church. She needs our prayers and support.

As a convert I get really frustrated at having to live the mistakes of popes and bishops who were more concerned with power and control than the mission Christ gave them. I feel like we've all been painted into corners and are saying, "hey, this is a nice place."

Serge, I'd really like to see your input on this thread...

Thanks. While I hate to see the Pope badmouthed and would like to see him visit Russia, I pretty much agree with Brendan, including that 1) the mainstream Western media are treating the Moscow Patriarchate like *&%# and 2) the MP doesn�t know how to deal with the media.

The musings about the media creating more centralization, less collegiality and a merging of rites are interesting... the thought is pretty disturbing... ISTM a homogenization based on Western (liberal? Novus Ordo?) models is what the PC liberals really want, patronizing talk about multiculturalism notwithstanding. (Like the West is waiting for us all to drop all our ethnicky old-fashioned stuff, get with the program and be �normal�.) I agree with Stuart that eparchies and parishes should be small, personal, familial... where there is the local o/Orthodox bishop, there is the Church. He is the father, the apostle, of the local Church. And all such bishops in communion with each other are the Catholic Church.

I am not confusing form with substance (to use a Western distinction) and would not be against new rites developing, even a merged one, as long as they are orthodox, Godward, like the Tridentine Roman, Byzantine, Coptic, Armenian, etc.

I don�t think Patriarch Alexis II fancies himself the Pope of all Orthodoxy but rather sees the three Russias � Russia, Byelorussia and Ukraine � as one people. And, like him or hate him, he has a point. The Russias are his turf. But, of course, Russianness, Ukrainianness or panslavism are not substitutes for Catholicity. I hope both sides among the Orthodox in Ukraine remember that.

Serge

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

Dear Serge,

You are right on several points, first that the western media treats the MP poorly, but that treatment extends to all things Russian. Probably one of the consequences of the Cold War.

That the Patriarch does not know how to deal with the media is probably also true, but the media was not handled well by the Vatican until John XXIII and then Paul VI was poorly regarded in the media. They are not pals of Christianity in general, but they have their uses. Only JP II has had good PR and that is based more on him and the changes in the world and less because of media goodwill. The MP may learn how to present their case better.

The idea that the three nations of Rus are a common people was severely tested by the Bolshevik conduct in Ukraine in the famine and purges of the thirties, not to mention the cold war years. Russian Imperialism colored by Communism drove another wedge into things and the problem of the MP regarding Ukraine requires a structural change of some sort in the Church or perhaps a new Patriarch, not identified in the minds of the people with the former regime or the forces of Russian Nationalism.

There is something to be said for central authority in the Patriarchate, but I think the Ukrainians are not likely to accept Moscow's control and will probably coalesce around an independent Ukrainian Church.

I am, as you know, an ecumenist of sorts, but I think that some further fragmenting in the Church is going to happen before any major steps toward unity. But I will keep praying.

Have a Blessed Day.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck