www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West married priesthood byz catholics ruthenian vs other rites?

Dear Gordo,

The assumptions appear to have been that in some mysterious way, Anglicans already belong to the Roman Church and therefore were "required" to join that Church on becoming Catholic (first fallacy: since, as you point out, the Catholic Church does not recognize Anglican Orders, it must follow that Anglicans cannot be said to be automatically members of any "sui iuris Church", to use a term which I deplore), and

the ordination of a married man to the priesthood in North America can only licitly happen with the aid of an extraordinary dispensation given in favor of the particular individual (second fallacy, for obvious reasons), and

the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, to which was reserved the granting of such a dispensation in favor of convert Protestant clergy, would only do so if the clergyman in question was to be ordained by a specific Roman Catholic bishop who requested the dispensation and was prepared, on receipt of an affirmative reply, to carry out the ordination!

Again, don't blame me - I am not now and never have been a canon lawyer, for which fact I am truly thankful.

Fr. Serge

Rome gets away with such because bishops and patriarchs don't stand up and say "no."

And why don't they stand up and say "no?" Is it politcs? Is it lack of courage? Is it just simple expediency, knowing how the system works? (I work at a major University and the politcs and self absorption of Administration is very discouraging. Doing the "right" thing seems to get people in trouble. Instead of being encouraged to put students and "education" first, we are penalized for taking initiative. Is it the same in the Church structure?) Or is it personal ambition on the part of the bishop or patriarch? Rocking the boat is fround upon. Even though the biggest boat rocker of all time was our Lord and Saviour! Look at what he took on--not only local authorities, his own people but the entire Roman Empire! Talk about courage. And I think him everyday for having that courage. Otherwise where would I be?

Father Keleher is right once again--Ruthenian bishops can ordain married men without asking permission. I believe Bishop Kudrick has done so twice. He was our parish for a few years in my home church in Western Pennsylvania. Somehow when I heard he had ordained married men to the priesthood, I was not surprised. He was wonderful. His homilies were terriffic, he presence was felt immediately and he was very, very approachable. We missed him when he left.

Tim

Bishop Kudrick visited our little mission here before he became a bishop. I had a chance to talk with him and was impressed that he often phrased things in terms of whether or not they were consistent with our traditions. I was impressed with him and thought he was a good man - and btw, to say that someone is a good man is a pretty high compliment, I think.

I agree. Superlatives are often overused in our society. Not everything can be "amazing!" or "Incredible!" Unless, of course, it's something like the Ronco pocket fisherman, or Mister Microphone, then we can be assured it's the best! (Can I get anymore sarcastic?)

Tim

I know that well. My hometown is a small coal mining town a few miles outside of Johnstown. That happens to be the home for the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the United States (ACROD) which is one of the groups of Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics who left after the 1929 ruling by the Vatican that enforced priestly celibacy. My hometown was truly torn by this event. Families split--some going to the new church, Sts. Peter and Paul, and some remaining in my home church, St. Mary's Byzantine Catholic Church. It was terrible. My parents lived through it (Dad born in 1913, Mom in 1916.) They often talked about how one parent and some kids would go to one church and the other parent with the rest of the kids went to the other church. They were one block apart, on the same street, no less! Family get togethers were very tense. Not to mention that ACROD followed the Julian calendar and the Byzantine church used the Gregorian calendar. Talk about confusing the heck out of kids!

The Metropolitan for the Diocese lives in Johnstown, near the Cathedral. I've been there for DL, it's very, very beautiful. And traditional, to say the least. The music was pretty much note for note as I remember it from my home church. The translation was a bit different, but not too much. Of course, I don't take Communion when I go.

If you're ever in the area, drop by. It's a beautiful Cathedral.

Tim

Actually, there are Eastern Catholic Patriarchs and bishops who do have the courage to stand up and say "no" to such nonsense.

Fr. Serge

Father Serge,

A priest friend of the Latin Church tells me the general thinking is somewhat as you say - that although they are ecclesial communities not churches with valid orders - the thinking is that Protestants should seek reconciliation and reception to the Roman Church.

I don't know that I really "buy" that idea. Actually I do know that I DON'T buy that idea.

In theory, would an Evangelical aliturgical Christian be expected to present himself to the Roman Ordinary when seeking reception into the Catholic Church? Would the laity be encouraged likewise?

One is left to smile and wonder what should be done with a member of the Ukraininan or Romainian Evangelical/Pentecostal communities, should any of them seek to be Catholic. I did not think such a creatures existed until I drove past some very LARGE congregations of such in Cleveland and Detroit.

One wonders, would any Eastern Catholic hierarch ever be so bold or be so interested in cultivating vocations from the American wellspring of converts to the Catholic Church from the Evangelical world we have begun to see in the past 4 decades. When I broached the subject with an eparchal vocations director I knew casusally he was somewhat skeptical/dismissive of how that could be made to work "They don't really know our traditions...." Seems to me that is what seminaries are for.

Seems to me the Orthodox in several American jurisdictions have figured out a way for it to work.

I sometimes wonder if we WANT vocations and WANT to grow and WANT to survive.

Tim,

ACROD parishes have the choice to be Old or New Calendar. Camp Nazareth in Mercer, PA, for example, is New Calendar. However, wherever Metropolitan Nicholas goes on a Sunday automatically becomes Old Calendar for the Day. So in August, Camp Nazareth will celebrate the Transfiguration twice (on the 6th and the 19th, when the bishop will be there).

Yeah, ACROD is pretty traditional. It's nice to attend a parish where EVERYONE knows Slavonic, even the converts! It's proof that using Slavonic doesn't scare converts away.

"It's proof that using Slavonic doesn't scare converts away."

Couldn't have said it better myself. I don't know why it's so threatening to some peolple. We don't have to do the entire DL in Slavonic, or change the vestments to look "older." Just a few prayers in the Liturgy, the Easter prayers in particular. "Christos Voskrese!" for some reason, just sounds better.

Tim

Re: Slavonic, are there still any Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian)Churches that use Church Slavonic in the Divine Liturgy?

Re: Protestants and Anglicans and their canonical stature, as far as I know, converts to Catholicism prior to 1983 were given the privilege of choosing which Rite to belong to. However, since the promulgation of the 1983 Code, the rule has been for a convert to be automatically considered as a member of the Rite or sui juris Church that most closely corresponds to his former Church or ecclesial community. Since Protestant and Anglican communities are historically break-aways from the Latin Rite, converts from these groups are automatically received to the Catholic Church via the Latin rite. In the same way, converts from Orthodoxy are normally received into the Byzantine Catholic church that most closely corresponds to his former canonical church (for ex. a convert from Ukrainian Orthodoxy would be considered as belonging to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church)

This argument is not altogether convincing. A convert from Ukrainian Orthodoxy would at least find Ukrainian Greek-Catholicism vaguely familiar. Just how familiar would the average Southern Baptist find Roman Catholicism?

Fr. Serge

Not very, especially if he was raised on a diet of Jack T. Chick most of his life.

Converts should be given a choice of where to be received, IMHO. It is a matter of justice, both personal and ecclesial.

In ICXC,

Gordo

As far as the Romanian diocese is concerned, the simple practical fact that we're flat broke and dependent on Latin charity for our continued organizational existence tends to put a damper on activism that might upset the latins too much. We do what we can but what we dare do is so little.

Ultimately, for us there is but one cure, Growth. We need evangelization to bring converts in and deepening our understanding of our own faith to increase organic growth and better answers to fundraising appeals. When you are masters of your own finances, able to live humbly within your means without subsidy, things improve.

I know of several cases, one on the authority of a friend who facilitates a Latin-Rite RCIA program, involving Eastern Orthodox converts to Catholicism, who were received into the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, with no regard given to the norm established as a rule at the time of the promulgation of the new Roman Code of Canon Law. I've always felt that if the Latins were not going to respect that procedure, why should we? The OCA is getting a lot of converts from Protestantism in the Deep South. IMHO, we should be in there vying for the same folks. My wife grew up in a Protestant home. She thinks that the Novus Ordo Missae, as celebrated in most American places, is not at all attractive, esp. to Protestants, and considers the "handshake of peace", as practiced in some places, to be "invasive". On the other hand, she considers the Byzantine liturgical services to be far superior to the Novus Ordo ones, esp. when it comes to the "sense of the sacred". This artificial division as to where converts are allowed to go probably does more harm than good. Let the convert decide which "sui iuris" Church he or she wishes to enter!

In Christ,
Dn. Robert