www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Sacred Heart, a naturalist devotion?

Nor have I.

Nevertheless, Latins are free to practice any devotion that is customary within their Church.

I'm saying that I have seen a lot of claims about an ancient theology of the heart which the SH devotion is supposed to be rooted in but finding evidence for this is proving elusive.

This is the last thing I will be able to say as I'm off tomorrow on holiday for a week. I look forward to catching up with the debates again when I get back.

Brigid

Yes, of course, that principle isn't being questioned by me.

Well there is certainly an ancient heart theology where deep calls unto deep. I don't know if you are saying that there is scant evidence for that or if you are saying that, as you understand it, the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus cannot possibly come from that tradition.

You see how it is difficult for me to proceed without that understanding.

Mary

Brigid,

First of all, safe travels!

Secondly, it appears that Timothy O'Donnel addresses some of the objections you mention in his book, Heart of the Redeemer. I used to have a copy of this text, but it looks like I misplaced it. I will endeavor to find out what I can of the patristic sources he employs to make his argument. I'm curious how explicit the connection is.

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/todonnell_sacredheart_jun07.asp

God bless!

Gordo

No, no, no...

This is my fault (getting a bit hot). I jumped too quickly.

Understand that I have a deep love for the entire Church. I am Roman Catholic, my wife's background is Greek Orthodox, my last spiritual director and good friend was a Russian Orthodox priest, I have been a personal friend of a very famous Orthodox theologian (I hesitate to name him as I do not want to suggest he endorses my opinions), I have a gift from the Patriarch of Jerusalem that he sent to me sitting on my shelf and I was the only Roman Catholic invited to private Orthodox seminars reserved for only Orthodox theologians (about three years ago). All this is not an endorsement of my views ... it is simply you know that I breath with 'both lungs' and am (at times) very passionate regarding the fact that there does exist a real unity of the churches (even if certain members do not admit it).

And so, at times, if I come across gross misunderstandings which perpetuate the human division of the church ... I can get a bit emotional. I am well versed in Latin theology as well as Eastern theology. For me - each one compliments the other when kept in the context each is intended for.

I also live in Connecticut - where - there does not exist any animosity between Catholic and Orthodox. None. I remember on an occasion when an Orthodox deacon was ordained to the priesthood (he had taught Patristics at the local RC seminary) ... the ceremony in the local Russian church was so beautiful ... when one looked out into the pews one saw just as many RC priests and nuns as Orthodox priests! (may this be a sign of things to come!). This type of brotherhood is normal here in CT.

And so please forgive me. Your post was actually an informative post for how some had interpreted the SH devotion - decades ago. If I had read more of the thread instead of landing just on that post... I would have seen your post in context of the discussion .

Peace be to you and your church which Christ loves.

-ray

I can not think of a anyone else I would rather eat crow with Gordo.

Shall you serve or shall I serve

-ray

That is interesting.

I had been studying Plotinus recently. The goal has been to zero in on what contemplation was - to earlier Christians of monastic traditions.

The book I was reading is: "Nature, Contemplation, and the One." a fine small book on the these aspects of Plotinus. Not so much an explanation but an exploration.

And I have been wondering about nous. The traditional translation of Nous (in commentaries on Plotinus) has been - intellect or mind. However, I have not been satisfied with that. An isolated intellect or mind - just did not seem to really fit entirely. I was not satisfied that the scholars had done well in this regard.

... but to add the Eastern aspect of 'heart' really seems to nail it.

It is soooo interesting (to me anyway). We think of the origin of creation and we think in Newtonian terms of a mechanical creation beginning with a big bang... while they (of the past) though of the origin of all things as originating from - the inside (with this wide concept of the 'heart').

We look outside of ourselves for the origin of creation and they ... looked inside.

Without babbling too much (!too late Ray!) this would mean that contemplation ... is attention and awareness to the - heart (the nous). And that contemplation is not - an empty mind. Nor a mental state of 'no-thoughts'. But rather is more like an existential attention to - the heart.

I had always assumed that - Providence - is much like our concept today of 'Reality' ... except Reality as a person (the person of Jesus Christ).

I know I am not wrong on that because John identifies the Word (Logos) as the very same as the ascended and resurrected Jesus.

And so Providence = the Logos in action (doing).

Which is the same as saying that Reality is a person, and that person is - the ascended and resurrected Jesus Christ.

And so what is conscience? (together-understanding) but also rolled up in this concept of - heart.

I am going to have to think on that (nous=heart) and re-read portions of Plotinus while using Palamas meaning.

Can you point me to where Palams speaks of nous?

You dropped these gem on me as if you have some pipeline to God and you know just what I need.

Where does Palams speak of nous?

-ray

I must say ...

In back reading some of these posts ... I can see that my memories of this board (a few years back) being at times, very anti-Catholic (which made for many insults in every direction) ... do not apply to the people currently here. I am reading posts which are very thoughtful. Very tolerant and open. Very intelligent and really expressive of charity for all.

What a wonderful bunch of people!

-ray

Thanks for straightening me out on that.

Do you know (perhaps) what apparitions to a nun I was thinking of?

The book I was referring to, I got from TAN many years ago. It was white - thick - and had a picture of Jesus with his sacred heart on the cover. He keep appearing to this nun who was, obviously, going through the dark nights, and Jesus encouraged her to suffer with him for the sake of souls. She endured a lot - and at times - He would rest her - within his heart.

It was a fantastic book for following how he led her (as a victim soul) through the dark nights.

I have it somewhere here ... and I seem to recollect it was very connected to - his 'heart'.

-ray

Quote

And I have been wondering about nous. The traditional translation of Nous (in commentaries on Plotinus) has been - intellect or mind. However, I have not been satisfied with that. An isolated intellect or mind - just did not seem to really fit entirely. I was not satisfied that the scholars had done well in this regard.

Dear Ray,

The book where Saint Gregory talks about the 'nous', is 'Saint Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite', by Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos. I believe that the interpretation of the nous being the heart, comes from a Greek English dictionary that I have, or from the book itself.

I find it strange that the 'nous' would be interpreted as the intellect or mind, because Saint Gregory was fighting concepts that began to come into the Greek world of reaching God through one's intellect. He was being confronted with the heresy of Barlaam and it was, and still is believed to have been caused by the intellectual persuits of the West via scholastism.

I personally believe that the best interpretation of the 'nous' would be one's heartful 'reasoning', since it is our reasoning that controls our passions, and it is our passions that causes us to commit sinful acts.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Dear Ray,

I'm not sure, but could it have been sister Faustina?


And yet, as bad as it was, it was so charitable in comparison to other forums. That it has become even more so, should be attributed to a certain party, or parties.

May God Bless you,

Zenovia

I can only guess that the book was about St. Margaret Mary Alacoque, a French nun who received the apparitions of Christ that form the basis of the Sacred Heart imagery. I don't know the specific book that you're refering to, but I know she was a French nun who was guided by Christ, and who provided the "promises of the Sacred Heart" which formed basis for the modern devotion.

The "promises" were not the origin of the Sacred Heart Devotion, however. They were simply the private revelations to a nun about that devotion.

Here's something I'll offer up as my own personal meditation on this mystery:

When you love something, does your heart beat a little stronger? When something really moves you, do you feel it in your heart first?

God became man, just like each of us. When Christ Loves, His heart beats stronger. When Christ is moved, His heart is the first to feel it. Most significantly, when Christ Loved Creation with everything He had, His Heart was pierced and poured forth the water of Baptism and the Blood of the Eucharist. That is the story of God-as-Man, the story of Christ.

Everything, from the first moment of His human life, to His Sacrifice, to the Resurection, goes back to His Heart. It started beating by Divine Decree and with Divine Life, it felt the Divine Love and the human participation in that Love, it Sacrficed itself and its human beating for all of humanity, and it began beating again by the Life of God, as the Restoration of Life to all humanity.

The heart is the seat of love, the seat of human motion, where we most feel our will and our selves. In Christ that heart is both human and Divine, with the same feeling yet with Divine importance. The Sacred Heart is the seat of the Divine Love for humanity, where the Divine Love physically beats with the same experience as our own hearts. That feeling we feel when we truly love something? That is felt in the Heart of Christ towards all of Creation, for all time, shared with us in a way we can only begin to understand.

That is the Devotion to the Sacred Heart; a devotion to the Incarnation, and the Mercy and Love that are manifested in It, and the realization of the Promises it represents.

Just my thoughts.

Peace and God bless!

Zenovia,

I remember those days...the ethos of this forum has evolved and is far more substantive IMHO. Perhaps that is what happens when we move beyond hyperbole?

There is nothing like it in the Church, which should be cause for kuddos to John the Administrator, Father Anthony and the great crew of moderators.

Many years!

Gordo

Oh I agree.

I have never, ever, participated in any other forums anywhere! I have never found either the quality nor the charity - that exists here. In fact, over the several years that I have been here, of come back here, there was an improvement each time.

Heartfelt reasoning ... I like that. I am not one to believe that contemplation is entirely a state of 'no-thoughts'.

Anyways .. thanks.

-ray