www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Vesperal Liturgy broadcast

I thought that this forum was limited to providing responses to the broadcast of the liturgy. I am sorry that certain people were not invited to the revision of the liturgy party. But must every topic be turned into badgering complaints? What do American musicals have to do with a broadcast?

Overall, I firmly disagree with what the moderator has written. I think that the Bishops have made the right decisions. I think that the Cantor Institute is right on track.

I will respond, however, to the "black gospel singers" idea. One priest wanted to "reach out" to some people from Africa. He asked the Africans if they would like to have some "African" music played during the liturgy. They said yes.

He asked them what they liked. They said that they loved Gregorian Chant. Well, that didn't really meet the priest's American stereotype of African music and the music stayed the same.

The point of this is that not all African-americans like gospel music. It is a mistake to think that African-americans cannot like the Byzantine liturgy as it is.

Again, this is the only venue for those who have been deeply injured. Their voices are not heard, and their letters thus far are ignored. Please do not denigrate them. Have mercy.
Yes--so you have written many times. Thanks for telling us again.

[Linked Image]

Beautiful.

I think you should realise that not all feel as you do Rufinus.

Personally I think it's great that there has been so much discussion on the subject of liturgy here.

Many of us have learnt a lot, and certainly I have, from listening to the Saturday evening Vesperal Litury from Parma.

I'm only sorry that getting a response from either Fr David Petras or Prof. J Micheal Thompson is so difficult. I still feel that there are many unanswered questions about these changes and I understand that our Ruthenian Catholics[ Byzantine Catholics ] are upset .

Frankly if our Liturgy changed from Ukrainian to English I would be upset - and I'm not a Ukrainian speaker . I can understand as some have said - that this is part of who they are - and they do not wish to lose this identity.

Back on track - perfectly reasonable comments were made about these broadcasts - I know I made several myself on purely technical grounds to do with the actual singing - I stated from the beginning that I could not comment on the texts. I still say that a lot of work is needed in Parma - and they desperately need someone to sort out things like voice production and ennunciation.

During the Liturgy this past weekend I listened to myself sing, paying particular attention to the "h's" and the A-ha-ha-ha-men.

To my horror I heard it. From my own mouth! I thought, "It's a good thing that Mary isn't here."

I think that we should give the RDL time. When I get a new pair of work boots it takes a week of painful wear until they begin to fit.

Where are you a cantor? What experience do you have cantoring?



Some will and some won�t. Is it necessary to make anyone become Ruthenian to become Byzantine Catholic?

Or is it OK for other cultures to develop music that works for them, just like we Ruthenians have?


Monomakh

It should be given time to be rescinded. But as it stands, time will not correct the vast errors of the this reformation.

Hey, yo, Mono!

(Please note the Americanized greeting. ]Yes. I believe these to be root questions. Let's look at them.

In your final question you ask - is it OK for other cultures to develop music that works for them?

This reminds me of an argument I am having with a Jesuit priest about whether or not there can be a "rap" Mass. It is a form of music from the inner city. He vigorously argues yes. I argue no.

Because my Jesuit aquaintance is busy, I keep my eyes open for things that would help his argument - like Hasidic Jewish Rapper Matisyahu. From an article: "Onstage, Matisyahu cuts a decidedly original figure, incorporating quotes from the Torah and melodies from Hasidic chants into songs that percolate over a reggae beat, extolling devotion to God while wearing the traditional black suit." (Erikson, Jewish Fed. of Washington).

Is this what admin. John meant by the gospel singers developing Byzantine chant? Rap is an American icon and with a little blending of Prostopinije you could have an interesting Liturgy. Perhaps you and John are right - Rap should be incorporated into the Divine Liturgy.

Secondly, where or where in these considerations is the subject of the authority of the Bishops to govern and one's obedience to the apostolic succession?

Finally, the Bishops went backwards in time to save a treasure. I am going to work very hard to pass that treasure on to succeeding generations. If people leave they will have to learn new music any way. Why not give this a try?

I will pray for those who find this difficult and painful.
Rufinus

????????????? Oy Vey!

I don't think this question has been answered yet.

New music with a good old fashion traditional proper translation. I can deal with that!

I've actually heard some of the Hasidic rapper's music. I don't care for rap for the most part, but I do like Klezmer music and some of what he did was pretty good.

I'm not ready to start rapping "Svate Boze" yet. I would rather not see that happen. That would really empty the churches quickly. But wouldn't that be an organic process that some talk about? And if it is, doesn't that make it a viable change to the music? Afterall, if we remember Bokshaj, he took the Prostopinje in his region and made it the official Prostopinje. There were other melodies in other churches, towns and counties, were there not? What happened to those?

Please--I'm being devil's advocate here. I do NOT want to see rap introduced to Prostopinje. I don't want to see anything changed. But to be honest, I'm still not sure about the new RDL melodies. IF they are more original and traditional, then maybe we do have a responsibility to embrace the true traditional melodies. Aren't we being orthodox if we do? Wouldn't we be "heretics" (and I use the term very lightly and loosely) if we want to change our true traditions just because it is easier for us?
If a whole generation has learned something wrong, should it be kept that way? What if we found a mistranslation in the Our Father. Do we keep it the way we are used to, or do we go with the original?

What would happen if archeologists uncovered an earlier version of a Gospel or an epistle, verified it's age and authenticity--only to find that it says something very contradictory to what we have been believing for centuries? As an example, let's say it says Jesus said that women are the equal of the Apostles and are specifically instructed to go out and spread the word just as the 12 were instructed, which would make them basically priests. Do we do we ignore it? Or do we accept it and make the necessary changes? If it could be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that's what the new manuscript says, what would we do? Again, I'm playing devil's advocate!

I'm just not sure about this RDL music yet. I'm certainly not ready to change churches yet.

Tim

Yes, prostopinije must be preserved. But what about the liturgical tradition? Is that not a treasure worth preserving?

_____
Labra lege.

I was always taught that "what if" questions should not be answered.