www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Conversion to the Church

Dear friends:

I feel obliged, after seeing many posts about people converting to Holy Orthodoxy making Catholics sad about people leaving their Church, to confess that I am comtemplating the possibility of being received into the Catholic Church (by the Traditional Rite of the Society of St. Pius X) and that the probable day will be August 6th, the day of the Transfiguration of our Lord.

This is, according to my personal view, in no way a rejection of Holy Orthodoxy. In fact I am deeply distressed because I inmensely love the beauty of the Byzantine Liturgy and my own spirituality is very Eastern and Byzantine. I still dream that some day I will be able to attend the Divine Liturgy at the Exarchate for Greek Christians in Constantinople, according to the Greek Rite of my Church.

However, I believe that the Catholic Church has logical and consistent answers about issues of faith such as the Final Judgement, what happens to the soul after death and so on. I have realized that the Church Fathers and Orthodox Saints of the first millenia believed in the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome, and that in spite of the awful abuses and evils that bad Popes and the Franks did to us, there is no reason to fully reject this primacy as some Orthodox do in recent times.

I still wish to see Rome removing the filioque from the Creed because it was ilegal and wrong to insert that word without full approval of the Church and I hope Pope Benedict might take this step if he's truly interested to reconcile all with the Church he presides. I still believe that the Catholic Church should conform more to the Orthodox interpretations because they come from the first millenium, and we must go back to that time in order to restore unity.

However, I do believe that the Latin interpretations are also legitimate, and that things such as Papal infalibility and other dogmas that Rome proclaimed were necesary to protect the Western Church from its enemies.

I am attracted to Traditional Catholicism because it still preaches moral values and defends the sactity of human life and marriage while our Churches permit divorces and second marriages. Not only the Novus Ordo has failed to teach these values to the people in Western Europe. Unfortunately sexual liberalism and lack of respect toward virginity for example, is rampant in young girls from East Europe too, in countries like Romania and Bulgaria (I don't know about other countries because I only have contact with people from these countries).

I don't see the Orthodox fighting for those values as the Traditional Catholic Movement does.

I see that the Orthodox Church will face serious difficulties in the next years because those who attacked the Roman Church from inside and introduced those evil changes and modernist trends, will start to attack Orthodoxy. Things look very much here as they looked in Rome in the 1950's and I would not be surprised if the Orthodox Churches have their own "Vatican II" very soon.

Another thing that makes me think about changing is that I see the Catholic Church as more consistent with the history of my country than that of the Orthodox Church. The Martyrs of Taos NM attended the Old Rite Liturgy before they went to war and died for our nation.

Unfortunately, Orthodoxy has failed to attract enough Latin Americans in spite of the beautiful liturgy. I have found people who are very Protestant minded and attack the Roman Church like the Protestants do while we should be fighting on the same side. I am dissapointed that so many Christians both Catholic and Orthodox do not see these heretics as enemies of Christ and enemies of the people. I'd rather be a Muslim than a Protestant, and the Traditional Catholic Church is deeply anti-Protestant, that's one of the reasons I feel attached to the movement.

I know that all this will seem very polemical, but I wanted to express my feelings.

Please receive my best wishes and greetings in Christ.

Mexican the Society of St Pius X is a schismatic sect!
Stephanos I

Mexican, our prayers for you on your journey ... may our Blessed Mother the Theotokos be with you ... as Stephanos points out Society of St Pius X is not in communion with the Holy Father ... maybe you should look at the Fraternity of St Peter which was canonically established by our late Holy Father of blessed memory, John Paul II .. their web site is www.fssp.com [fssp.com] .. it follows the traditional rites.

Dear Mexican,
I respect your right to make your own choice for teh church that fills your spiritual needs.
I only have one comment on something you stated:
As the father of 2 young men, I want to make it clear that I set the same standards for my sons as I would for daughters if I were blessed with daughters. The standards of Christian morality should be applicable for both sexes. Please think about this.

Mexican,

I do not know your real first name, but you have my prayers. Since this is the town forum and not the prayer forum, I feel it is okay to make a few comments. The first thing I will tell you (as one who was Melkite Greek Catholic and moved to Orthodoxy) is that you must follow your conscience. Indeed, no less a Latin authority than St. Thomas Aquinas would agree. So, pray about your decision, do what your head and heart tell you that you must do, and then strive to follow Christ as best you can.

It seems pretty clear to me that you are a sensitive soul. The Lord has blessed your sensitivity. I exhort you to remain sensitive to the needs and concerns of those that moved in other directions. You realize, of course, that joining the Society of St. Pius X is rather controversial. Whether it is schismatic or not is another question. To be honest, it is not a concern of mine since I am not a part of the Roman communion. But, realize that most in the Roman Catholic Church will not be too sympathetic with your decision. But, you have my prayers and my respect, since I know how difficult it can be to make such decisions based on conscience. Go with God.

Joe

Pope Benedict has lifted the poltiics of having the Latin Mass widespread in every dioceese if that was does it for you please reconsider your joining the SSPX they are a schismatic group and not the catholic church you reprotedly want to join, they are dissidents not in communion with the Bishop of Rome. With this recent news I see little need for joining such groups as the Latin Mass will be more widely available in the near future just be patient also the Eastern Catholic Churchs remain a vialbe option for a person coming into the church and has not been baptized into a rite.

I concur.

Don't join the SSPX if you want to join the Catholic Church. The SSPX is not in communion with the Pope. If you believe in the Catholic Church and its teachings, and if you want to be part of the Catholic Church, then just join the Catholic Church.

Also, if the Latin Mass is what you want in a service, join the Catholic Church at a parish that offers the Latin Mass. Pope Benedict issued a Motu Propio this weekend which allows Roman Catholic priests to celebrate the Latin Mass almost whenever they want. Be patient; there will more of those parishes soon.

-- John

I do not think it is appropriate for us to be giving spiritual advice to Mexican , if he is totally committed to this action.

I would however ask him about how he will reconcile himself to the fact that SSPX also say the Creed using the filioque when he has commented


If he believes it was illegal to insert it - how is he going to bring himself to actually mean it when he has to say it every week.

Remie, my dear brother and friend,

As I have whenever one among us has made a spiritual journey, from or to Catholicism, from or to Holy Orthodoxy, from or to the East, I shall offer prayers for you in your discernment, trusting to God's love and the intercesstion of our holy ancestors in all the Eastern Churches, that you will be guided to the choice that is most beneficial for your salvation.

Be strong and be at peace.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Friends

I am glad to receive spiritual advice from you and from everybody. I am just contemplating (thinking about) converting but haven't done so yet.

I must point out that I am currently not in the United States and that in my country the Traditional Mass is baned by the Roman Bishops, the FSSP does not exist and there is not a single Indult Parish.

This forces Traditionalists to attend the SSPX (there is another group that folls a quasi-Matthewite eclesiology and does not recognize Benedict XVI at all). I like the SSPX because its liturgy is very close to the Greek Orthodox one, in spite of being from the Latin Tradition. At least you have the fullness of the Latin Tradition there if you can't find the fullness of the Byzantine Tradition (this is different in the USA, where you can find very Eastern parishes among the Byzatine Catholics). I know it sounds strange and probable ilogical, I know.

The French priest I see from the SSPX has said that he agrees with Rome, that the filioque is not obligatory for Eastern Christians, not even if I attend their Churches. He also said that there are one or two Orthodox priests helping the SSPX in Belarus and Russia.

I take Miller's comment as true, and I'm sorry that I singled out the word "girls" at my post, because we men should also follow the same standards of Christian morals.

Thanks very much

Juan (John)

Juan,

I am not very well versed in Catholic traditionalist movements. I know that many have said that the Society of St. Pius X is in schism, and it likely is. I've no reason to contest what anyone has said about this. But, if I were you I would investigate this issue carefully and find out whether attending the Society of St. Pius X parish and being a member necessarily means that you are schism. I don't know the answer to this.

Joe

Dear Mexican,

I shall pray for you.

There was a time when I was in the Melkite Church that I painfully went through the catechumenate into the Holy Orthodox Church. Yes, the driving force for several of us was the threat of more changes and abuse in the Novus Ordo Mass and what would become of us in the Eastern Church. With the threats of changes in the Divine Liturgy, I headed for a church where change was considered to be a heretical word.

Entering the catechumenate was very difficult because I could no longer receive the sacraments in either church. Then I realized that just being present at the Divine Liturgy where Christ was truly present in the Eucharist was an awesome event. When I felt holy joy upon watching the Priest distribute Holy Communion, I knew that I could better prepare myself for the day when I would receive Him. It was well worth the wait and it was a time for much spiritual growth.

Ask yourself, can you no longer receive Communion with the Orthodox faithful? Can you commit to the SSPX when it might come into communion with Rome in the near future and then undergo some dramatic changes too?

That's one of the things I think about, that if I convert I would not be able to receive communion at the Orthodox Church (although this is not always observed here, the Antiochians have allowed Copts and Catholics to receive it).

If I complained it was hard to find an Orthodox Church now it will be very difficult to find a Traditionalist Church or an Eastern Rite Catholic Church if I'm not located in the capital city.

I have talked to "Modern) Catholic priests and they say that I should stay Orthodox even if I don't go to church very often, and that I can attend Catholic churches being Orthodox, but I don't know if this is right. The Traditionalists say it's not correct.

I thought I would received support from Catholics but in fact they have seen this as an everyday act.

I'm a little confused about this.

Juan,

I'm in something of a similar position to you in someways; but I'm leaning towards staying where I am, for there's no perfect church under the sun.

Faith is about persistence to a large degree, and maybe the influence on me is that I admire the persistence of people woho like the Tridentine rite who've stayed as a symbol of faith; I know many people who have loved the trad mass and been without it for 40 years, but they have been rewarded for sticking around with our current Pope; on the other hand the people who have broken with the faith of their fathers for what they believe is right show great courage, but on balance, persistence though less glamourous and obvious, wins for me.

ALthough my crisis is more about the demise of the Russian rite than the absence of the Tridentine, I empathise and hope my observations are helpful.

Ned

Dear Juan,

I received a complaint from someone from one of the countries you mentioned.

I remind you that the problem of sexual license in young women (and men), unfortunately, exists in most Catholic, Protestant AND Orthodox countries of the world and is not limited to only Orthodox 'Eastern European' countries...

On the other hand, there are virtuous women and men in all countries of the world, as well. I don't think that any one country or countries should be singled out by such blanket statements.

Alice, Moderator