www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West New Curial Document on Nature of the Church

The following from the CDF:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...oc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

I direct your attention to the following passage:

Second Question: What is the meaning of the affirmation that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church?

Response: Christ "established here on earth" only one Church and instituted it as a "visible and spiritual community"[5], that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted.[6] "This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic [�]. This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him"[7].

In number 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium �subsistence� means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church[8], in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth.

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.[9] Nevertheless, the word "subsists" can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the "one" Church); and this "one" Church subsists in the Catholic Church.[10]

Third Question: Why was the expression "subsists in" adopted instead of the simple word "is"?

Response: The use of this expression, which indicates the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church, does not change the doctrine on the Church. Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are "numerous elements of sanctification and of truth" which are found outside her structure, but which "as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity"[11].

"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church"[12].


If you read on, you will note that the document indicates that the Churches not in communion with Rome (i.e. Orthodox) do not possess the fullness of the Church, but have defects, though they have many elements of grace and sanctification. They are true particular Churches, but they are not, in the full sense of the word, within the one Church of Christ.

I'm glad that the CDF has published this. It affirms what I have been saying. The Roman Catholic Church considers itself to be the true Church. The Orthodox Church considers itself to be the true Church. Each Church (RC and Orthodox) considers the other to be deficient in one or more respects and therefore, not the one true Church in the fullest sense of that term.

We cannot ignore that there are real differences. Our faith, though similar (and perhaps nearly identical) is not identical. The one Church of Christ is not a composite of our two Churches. The one Church of Christ is not divided.

Joe

Indeed, we are in fact "defective" and "harmed" as members of the Orthodox Church. Nothing new though. This part


Meaning we derive our value and grace not from ourselves, but from the RCC by proxy.

Correct, just as every Bishop in the world derives his office from the Bishop of Rome. This teaching has not been changed. It is just reworded.

Joe

Dear Joe,

The difference between us is that the Catholic Church sees the material schism as the defect, not the Orthodox Church's doctrinal teachings. So that for the Catholic Church, all that would really be necessary would be for a renewal of communion and the cessation, on the part of some Orthodox faithful, of the accusations of heterodoxy against Catholic teaching.

The Catholic Church does not ask that Orthodoxy eliminate any of her teachings, but to add the formal acceptance of the Petrine Ministry.

The Orthodox Church offers both publicly and privately a highly mutable laundry list of teachings that the Catholic Church is expected to change in order to end the material schism, yet Orthodoxy has never called a universal council to effect a formal schism and a formal set of declarations of heresy based on the laundry list of errors that I have referred to here.

At any rate there is a quantifiable difference between the closeness to Orthodox claimed by the Catholic Church and the distance that Orthodoxy sets in place between herself and the Catholic Church.

For my own part the defect lies where my Church says it lies...in the material schism which does not demand a wholesale change in Orthodoxy to heal.

Mary

This is just an explanation of "Dominus Iesus," from which you have been citing the position of the Catholic Church.

The crux of this explanation lies in the reiteration of the doctrine on the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, successor to Peter, as the visible sign of unity in the Church Christ established here on earth. Without communion with the Bishop of Rome, one cannot be considered within the Church of Christ, which "subsists in" the Catholic Church.

Given the timing of this document, it serves as an indirect answer to the allegation of ROC's Bishop Hilarion of Vienna that the issue on the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, although it has been included in the agenda, will not be discussed at the next meeting of the International Commission this Fall in Ravenna, Italy.

As the document explained, the Catholic Church is fully committed to ecumenical dialogues but it should be understood by all participants that she will maintain the "nature" of the Church as defined in "Lumen Gentium" and in "Dominus Iesus."

Mary,

Is not the acceptance of the Petrine ministry as entailing the universal jurisdiction and (under certain conditions) the infallibility of the Pope a change in what Orthodoxy currently teaches? If the universal jurisdiction of the papacy and papal infallibility are dogmas of the Catholic Church, then we Orthodox are in formal schism. Indeed, we deny a fundamental Dogmatic truth of the Catholic faith. I don't see how this can be interpreted any other way.

Joe

Pope: Other Christians not true churches

By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer
LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_re_eu/pope_other_christians

Amado,

I appreciate this honesty on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church. If there is to be any worthwhile discussion, then all equivocation must be stopped and the conversants in the theological dialogue need to speak clearly.

Joe

Dear Ed,

You are taking what was said by the Pope to it's most extreme and negative connotation. He said the Protestants cannot be called Churches, because they lacked apostolic succession, but that does not mean that they are not members of the one Church of God.

As for the Orthodox, he is affirming that even though they are Churches, they are missing a key element, the Pope. Something I tend to agree with. That is why they have so much friction between them.

That does not mean that they are to accept the Pope's primacy as he is recognized in the Catholic Church, but some recognition must be established that will be acceptable to both Churches.

They are working on it...hopefully!

God Bless,

Zenovia

There's nothing new here.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0703923.htm

It says the Protestants shouldn't be called sister churches and should be called Christian communities. It says the Orthodox are the only others who may be called a Church, but that they still don't have the fullness of Catholicism without unity with the Pope.

What else would you expect the Catholic Church to say?

Christ was more interested in the inner spirit of a person than the exterior person. Christ is interested in love & compassion.
The Samaritans were not "true Jews" at the time of Christ, yet they & other Gentiles were often the object of his parables. Think of the Parable of the Good Samaritan: the "true Jew" would not touch the wounded man on the side of the road for fear of ritual impurity. It was the Samaritan, who was outside Judaism, who was praised by Christ.
1CORINTHIANS:13: Though I command languages both human and angelic - if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing. And though I have the power of prophecy, to penetrate all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all the faith necessary to move mountains - if I am without love, I am nothing. Though I should give away to the poor all that I possess, and even give up my body to be burned - if I am without love, it will do me no good whatever.

In sum, the Catholic Church considers the "Petrine ministry" in the Church as non-negotiable as it was instituted by Our Lord Jesus Christ to "govern" His Church, which fully "subsists in" the Catholic Church.

What is negotiable, as set forth recently by the late Pope John Paul II, is the manner by which this "Petrine ministry" should be exercised to be acceptable by both the Catholic Chruch and the non-Catholic Churches.

What does the "Petrine ministry" entail?

In progression, I think we have been discussing:

(1) Primacy of honor, which is generally acceptable by the East;
(2) Primacy of jurisdiction; and
(3) Universal jurisdiction.

Over and above these jurisdictional issues, is papal infallibility a necessary adjunct to the Pope's primatial authority?

I am skeptical in trusting the AP with their reporting on matters of faith, especially in their interpertation of church documents.

After looking at the document (source [vatican.va]), I find it hard to find their slant objective.


He then answers the second question asking about the choice of "subsist in" rather than "is": "Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are 'numerous elements of sanctification and of truth' which are found outside her structure, but which 'as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity'"

It is not fully accurate to claim that this document "says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches".

Christ - "My kingdom is not of this world"

Pope - Leader of Secular country.

Enough said.

Orthodox Christians know all to well which Church is as the Pope put it, "defective".

When there is a Pope in Vatican who holds to the tenants of Orthodoxy, than and only than will we have a unified Church.

This is the official text of the document in English [scroll down to the 4th translation]:

http://212.77.1.245/news_services/b...mp;lang=en#TESTO%20IN%20LINGUA%20INGLESE