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Dec 29th, 2019
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�Ecumenism is a collective name for pseudo-Christianities, for the pseudo-Churches of Western Europe. All European humanisms, headed by Papism, have given it their wholehearted support. And all these pseudo-Christianities, all these pseudo-Churches, are nothing other than a collection of heresies. Their common evangelical name is pan-heresy.�
This quote always occurs in my mind, when I read something like that. Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ, church of the Holy Fathers and Councils, Church of Saint Seraphim of Sarov, Saint Nectarios of Aegina, Saint John Chrysostom and other millions of martyrs and saints, Church whose rock has always been and will be Our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't need proof for its validity from those who departed from it long time ago.
Слава Оцу, Сину и Светоме Духу, сада и увијек и у све вјекове. Амин
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�Ecumenism is a collective name for pseudo-Christianities, for the pseudo-Churches of Western Europe. All European humanisms, headed by Papism, have given it their wholehearted support. And all these pseudo-Christianities, all these pseudo-Churches, are nothing other than a collection of heresies. Their common evangelical name is pan-heresy.� Krsto, Who wrote that? _____ Ребята, давайте жить дружно.
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And, thereby, the rest of us know exactly where we stand with him and his church . . . which leaves us two questions: Shall this become another time of religious enmity and competition between the Churches? Or, shall this become a time of "good fences make good neighbors" ? Time and our responses will tell. I believe it has simply reiterated that we have irreconcilable views, but at least we can state them without being unfriendly. I also as I've said laud the honesty in the statement. The only response I've seen is from Metropolitan Kirill of the MP: Vatican's honest position furthers dialogue - Metropolitan Kirill
Moscow, July 11, Interfax - The Russian Orthodox Church has called "honest" the position of the Vatican published in a document of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith stating that the Catholic Church is the only Church approved by Christ.
"It is an honest statement. It is much better than the so-called 'church diplomacy'." It shows how close or, on the contrary, how divided we are," Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, who heads the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations, told journalists in Moscow.
"For an honest theological dialogue to happen, one should have a clear view of the position of the other side," because "it helps understand how different we are," he said. Basically, the Vatican's current document has nothing new and is in "full conformity with the doctrine of the Catholic Church," Metropolitan Kirill said.
"The Orthodox Church is, according to Apostolic Succession, successor and heir to the old, undivided Church. Which is why everything contained in the Catholic document rightfully applies to the Orthodox Church," the Metropolitan added. I think that's very well stated by Metropolitan Kirill. Until one side or another comes out and says they are wrong, I see the good fences and good neighbors result. I of course pray the RCC changes its stance, but I don't hold out any real hope.
Last edited by AMM; 07/11/07 07:35 AM.
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And, thereby, the rest of us know exactly where we stand with him and his church . . . which leaves us two questions: Shall this become another time of religious enmity and competition between the Churches? Or, shall this become a time of "good fences make good neighbors" ? Time and our responses will tell. I believe it has simply reiterated that we have irreconcilable views, but at least we can state them without being unfriendly. I also as I've said laud the honesty in the statement. The only response I've seen is from Metropolitan Kirill of the MP: Vatican's honest position furthers dialogue - Metropolitan Kirill
Moscow, July 11, Interfax - The Russian Orthodox Church has called "honest" the position of the Vatican published in a document of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith stating that the Catholic Church is the only Church approved by Christ.
"It is an honest statement. It is much better than the so-called 'church diplomacy'." It shows how close or, on the contrary, how divided we are," Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, who heads the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations, told journalists in Moscow.
"For an honest theological dialogue to happen, one should have a clear view of the position of the other side," because "it helps understand how different we are," he said. Basically, the Vatican's current document has nothing new and is in "full conformity with the doctrine of the Catholic Church," Metropolitan Kirill said.
"The Orthodox Church is, according to Apostolic Succession, successor and heir to the old, undivided Church. Which is why everything contained in the Catholic document rightfully applies to the Orthodox Church," the Metropolitan added. I think that's very well stated by Metropolitan Kirill. Until one side or another comes out and says they are wrong, I see the good fences and good neighbors result. I of course pray the RCC changes its stance, but I don't hold out any real hope. Wow, I said basically what the Metropolitan Kirill. This is comforting knowing that what I was thinking was not just in line with our hierarchs, but it is what they are thinking too. I'm not flattering myself, I'm just expressing relief that I am on the same page as the hierarchy. I agree with John and Andrew that this means that "good fences make good neigbhors" is the best policy. I do not that we will achieve a reunion of the Churches. Friendly cooperation and mutual respect is a worthy goal, however, and much can be accomplished through that. It seems to me that both Rome and Orthodoxy are headed down two different irrevocable paths. Joe
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I'm afraid you are probably right--good fences and good neighbors. I don't see any hope for a reconciliation since neither side is willing to move an inch. That being said, is there any hope that there could be joint cooperation among the Orthodox and the "Catholic Church?" (I use the quotation marks deliberately and not with malice. I am Byzantine Ruthenian, but as pointed out earlier in this thread people often make the mistake of thinking the RCC is the only Catholic Church. No disrespect is meant.)
Think of the good we could do in the world if we could at least put aside our differences and set up a joint program to carry out Christ's instructions to help those in need? I know there are financial difficulties on both sides, but even when one considers how poor other countries are in comparison with ours, even a few pennies make a huge difference. One penny from each member of both Churches would be how much money? How many schools, hospitals and other things could be built? Let the fences stand but step out from behind them to work together to help another neighbor. What do you think?
Tim
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Venerable father Justin Popovich.
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I'm afraid you are probably right--good fences and good neighbors. I don't see any hope for a reconciliation since neither side is willing to move an inch. That being said, is there any hope that there could be joint cooperation among the Orthodox and the "Catholic Church?" (I use the quotation marks deliberately and not with malice. I am Byzantine Ruthenian, but as pointed out earlier in this thread people often make the mistake of thinking the RCC is the only Catholic Church. No disrespect is meant.)
Think of the good we could do in the world if we could at least put aside our differences and set up a joint program to carry out Christ's instructions to help those in need? I know there are financial difficulties on both sides, but even when one considers how poor other countries are in comparison with ours, even a few pennies make a huge difference. One penny from each member of both Churches would be how much money? How many schools, hospitals and other things could be built? Let the fences stand but step out from behind them to work together to help another neighbor. What do you think?
Tim Tim, I would hope that we would cooperate with one another as much as possible while respecting boundaries. And while I know that there is disagreement among Orthodox about this, I see no problem in joint non-Eucharistic prayer, at least in certain contexts. Being honest and realistic, I think, would even help cooperation. Since there would be no second guessing of motives and no (unintentionally) false or misleading statements and activities that get people's hopes up. Indeed, I think that this has been part of the problem. With all due respect to his late holiness, John Paul II, and to Pope Benedict XVI, when they say things like "the Church must breathe again with both lungs," and that nothing should be imposed upon the eastern churches that was not practiced during the first millenium, they unintentionally mislead people because what they say is ambiguous. It is one thing to say that the first millenium should be a model for reunion. It is another thing to specify what that first millenium is. Also, there is a big difference between, on the one hand, claiming to have universal and supreme power over the Church, yet promising to give the eastern Churches as much freedom as possible and, on the other hand, recognizing that the papacy did not have full and supreme, universal power in the early Church and revising current Roman doctrine in accordance with it. It isn't enough for Rome to say that the issue is just how to exercise the primacy. If that is the issue, then it is still the case that Rome is basically saying, "though we have supreme power, we will condescend and not use it, just keep in mind, that we always have the right to." And also when Rome talks about respecting the rights and priviledges of the patriarchs, we need ask exactly what Rome thinks those rights and priviledges are? Still, we should cooperate as far as we possibly can  Joe
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It seems to me that both Rome and Orthodoxy are headed down two different irrevocable paths.
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It is not for man to create a syphon between himself and Christ's salvation. For those who try to segragate men from Heaven, Just read what Christ said of the Pharisees--who did the same.
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But who is doing the segregating?
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Pope: Other Christians not true churches
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Pope: Other Christians not true churches Of course, the Pope is not saying that other christians are not christians. Joe
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Until one side or another comes out and says they are wrong, I see the good fences and good neighbors result. I of course pray the RCC changes its stance, but I don't hold out any real hope. Dear Andrew, The above quote simply shows where your problem is. No one has to say they are wrong. As Bishop Kallistos Ware said when he spoke at my church, we should not be out to one up the other. The differences in the Churches can be solved very easily since most are really semantics. I have been told by a Patriarchal speaker, that everything is solvable, the only problem is: Who will they be solved with? In other words, unless the position of the Pope is established first, there is no one to speak to. What it comes down to, is how far can the Pope go in lessening his position without causing problems with the extreme elements of his flock, and how far can the Orthodox go in accepting some authority within the stature of the Papacy, without alienating the extremists in their flock. God Bless, Zenovia
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�Ecumenism is a collective name for pseudo-Christianities, for the pseudo-Churches of Western Europe. All European humanisms, headed by Papism, have given it their wholehearted support. And all these pseudo-Christianities, all these pseudo-Churches, are nothing other than a collection of heresies. Their common evangelical name is pan-heresy.� Dear Krsto, Take a note of the quote which you posted, and the quote in my above post by Saint Nektarios. Note the difference!  Tell me, in that which you quoted, is their anything stated that is not negative, denigrating and demeaning? Now is the person that stated that, a person that you would respect and follow? I should hope not!  By posting it, you have accomplished exactly the opposite of what your intentions might have been...as far as I can tell.  God Bless, Zenovia
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�Ecumenism is a collective name for pseudo-Christianities, for the pseudo-Churches of Western Europe. All European humanisms, headed by Papism, have given it their wholehearted support. And all these pseudo-Christianities, all these pseudo-Churches, are nothing other than a collection of heresies. Their common evangelical name is pan-heresy.�
This quote always occurs in my mind, when I read something like that. Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ, church of the Holy Fathers and Councils, Church of Saint Seraphim of Sarov, Saint Nectarios of Aegina, Saint John Chrysostom and other millions of martyrs and saints, Church whose rock has always been and will be Our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't need proof for its validity from those who departed from it long time ago. Wow. And quotes like that come to mind...why? Gordo
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