www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Ukr. pres & Constantinople Patriarch discuss united Church

Subdeacon Borislav, you stepped over the line with your comments about the Catholic Church's supposed failure to "speak out" against the Nazis.

Try reading the book "They Myth of Hitler's Pope", written by a rabbi.
Pius XII was a saintly man who did all he could to save Jews.

As for collaborators in the Polish Church, there were a few, no doubt, but the Catholic Church in Poland refused to submit to Communism, always struggled against it and it was in Poland that Communism's fall in Europe began.

I could add that is was the Catholic church in Poland that resisted Tsarist Russia's attempts at Russification of the part of partitioned Poland that fell under the Tsar, while preserving Polish culture, religion, and language.

All of this Orthodox-Catholic fighting really gets old and people really need to move beyond the struggles of 500 years ago. Secularism and radical Islam threaten to chew up and spit out Christianity in Europe, but some would rather argue about 1596 and Brest.

Some Christian forgiveness we all show each other.

In my reading of history of Eastern Europe there is plent of blame to go around, and frankly, it seems to me, that most of the time, which ever Church was in power, allied with the state, typically oppressed the other Church.

Yes we need to move beyond 1596, and 1946, and 1990, and face together the tyranny of relativism, Islamo-fascism, and seek to win souls for Christ.

Lance,

Thanks for these consoling words.

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, it occurred to me how ironic it seems that I welcome any discussion of unity among Ukrainian Orthodox, even though such a move could be seen as turning the "balance of power" against the UGCC.

Movement towards unity is an indication that real spiritual healing is taking place, and that has to be good for everyone. The visible divisions came about only as a manifestation of an unseen brokenness and internal division that already existed.

A false re-union will be short lived. Let us pray that that is not what happens.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

On the lighter side- have any of you heard this joke (I think someone else has posted it on Byzcath.org before-)?:

Q: What do you get when you have 3 Ukrainians together?
A: Four jurisdictions!

You also get six political parties!

Lanceg,

Thank you. The sins and hurts of the past cannot be undone. Yet, Christ called on all of us to forgive. The parable of the servant who was forgiven a large debt but demanded repayment of the small debt owed him is one we must all live by, and I'm as guilty as anyone else of not doing it.

We argue and Satan laughs.

"However, I have been disappointed with the attitude of some Orthodox to the recent re-emergence of the Greek Catholic Churches from the catacombs."

We are not disappointed with the re-emergence, we are disappointed with the way it re-emerged. Violence, taking over of parishes, beat up Orthodox Priests and Parishioners, spilled out Gifts in the altar, and ripped Antiminses.

Mr. Clean your remarks of Russian attempts of Russification are truly and utterly laughable after what Poland did in both Ukraine and Russia to Latinize the Orthodox Christians there.

I am done with this thread because your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Borislav,

I will PM this to you too, in case you do not return to this thread for awhile.

I understand if you want to bow out of this thread if you are frustrated with us. But please know that those of us on this forum who are Greek Catholic have warm feelings toward the Orthodox and are willing to dialogue and reach out the right hand of fellowship to you.

It is hard to talk about the past; it is hard to find out that some of our ancestors in faith have not treated other Christians well. I am very aware of the way Polish Catholics mistreated not only the Orthodox but their fellow Catholics, the Byzantine Church. I know about the destruction of Orthodox Churches in the 1920's.

Hopefully, discussing these matters in a frank way can contribute to mutual understanding rather than straining our relations.

In any future discussion, I want to be as honest as I can about history, and acknowledge the failings of any of my fellow churchmen. I want to be able to discuss differences with my Orthodox brethren as well as what we have in common in an open manner.

- Lance

OK, I am stepping in now. I knew almost from the start of this thread we had problems here. I moved this thread to the moderator�s area so I can carefully read it through without further posts to it, so I could craft my reply before moving it back. A multitude of complaints have come in from both sides of the issues almost since this thread has started, that have cited inaccuracies, unsubstantiated claims, and uncharitable comments from different posters. I have to agree that all three exist here.

History should never be taken from one source, for there is yet to be a historical account that has been written objectively. Both sides suffered in different ways, either by direct suppression or by being slowly strangled through direct government interference in the life of the Church. Many martyrs were given to both the Russian (and for that matter other Churches, i.e. Polish, Czech, etc) as well as the different Greek Catholic Churches. Their witness lives on as examples for all of us on both sides.

What was the enemy are the forces of evil, namely the governments that had agendas in what was done either by outright liquidation or slow strangulation. Men of weak faith were used as pawns and then expended when they were no longer fitting into that agenda. It is a shame that some could be so courageous and others weak. But then if you examine the history of the Church for the first three centuries, you will see the same examples and the same issues.

Instead of dwelling on the wounds that have been inflicted and keeping them open, we should learn about the pain of others. Both sides share martyrs and confessors. Both sides had victims in the gulags and prisons. Finally both sides were facing liquidation either rapidly as in the case of the Eastern Catholics or slowly as in the case of the Orthodox by slow strangulation. Both have re-emerged to bear witness to the power of God. That in itself should help bring us healing.

I strongly suggest to all before posting to a topic like this again, take the time to read different sides of what has happened through history. You may find out that instead of hatred, you actually share more of a common history in faith and witness of the power of the Almighty to triumph over evil. This thread is closed because of the rancor and reasons I cited above.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator