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Originally Posted by Lazareno
There should be no need for a "gathering hymn" or "scattering" hymn. Ideally (maybe that's not the word), normally there should be the celebration of the Hours (Matins or Third/Sixth Hours) before the Liturgy, -- the tail end of which could coincide with the beginning of the Liturgy. As for a recessional hymn, why not have the distribution of antidoron with the singing of Psalm 33 (I will bless the Lord at all times). The prayer after communion of St. Basil or St. John Chysostom could also be recited while people file out or stay to offer a proper thanksgiving.

Because of scheduling issues, our mission has a late-afternoon Sunday liturgy. Several years ago we began doing 9th Hour before liturgy, but we were told we had to start about 30 minutes before the Divine Liturgy. This way we can get done, not confuse people who don't know what we are doing, and not interfere with the priest processing in from the narthex at the beginning of liturgy. frown

At the end of liturgy we have a silent "mirovanije" with the sacred chrism frown . There is never any kissing of the hand cross because our priest "doesn't like that kissing stuff" frown . There is "antidoron", but it is actually just more of the large supply of pre-cut particles that were dumped in a basket before the liturgy began so that they could be distributed afterwards frown . We did get permission from our priest to chant the post-communion prayers during this time, but he revoked permission two weeks later, saying "They don't do that at the seminary." frown

I keep saying that someday I am going to have 95 frown 's , at which point I will have to write them out and nail them to the doors of the church.

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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Since normal Latin practice is unaware of a "gathering hymn", it seems that Latin practice is an unlikely source from which to borrow the idea.

Father, your blessing!

At least in the United States, over the past 30 years or so, I have not seen the appointed introit used for daily or Sunday Masses in the Latin Rite, with a TINY number of exceptions (usually in college when I was asked to direct a schola). Instead, "some suitable hymn" is used; this is the hymn that was later termed a "gathering song." Regardless of the terminology used, it certain is "Latin practice" in the US even if it is not the normative practice. ( I haven't seen a recent version of the General Instruction for th e Roman Missal).

While the Hours or, even better, Matins should certainly should be celebrated before the Liturgy (the MCI recently put out a booklet of the Third Hour for those parishes that take it before Liturgy), it seems to me somewhat strange if either service is still going on during the incensing at the beginning of the Divine Liturgy (unless the services are actually combined!). So there is certainly time for a Marian or other hymn at this point. (I find it ironic that earlier many were complaining about the absence of these hymns in the new service book, as a sign that the bishops were discouraging hymn-singing; while in this thread there seems to be a bias against having them at all!)

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

ByzKat #244991 07/14/07 07:08 PM
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A bias against hymn-singing? It's a big world, and no doubt some people can be found with such a bias, but I am not among them (though I have strong preferences in hymns - are you familiar with J. M. Neale's Hymns of the Eastern Church?)

You raise the question of what to sing during the first incensation just before the Enarxis - a not unreasonable question; the moment is a solemn one and should be perceived that way. The Greeks sing the Great Doxology at that point. One might sing the Polyeleos - which is quite lovely and solemn. And so forth. A Marian hymn would not seem altogether suitable, except perhaps on a Marian feast (one could also sing the Magnificat with its refrain, since that is sung during a great incensation). Or . . . but you get my general idea.

So when to sing the Marian Hymns? Perhaps when the faithful come to kiss the Cross at the conclusion of the Liturgy (they should be singing Psalm 32, but that is almost a dead letter - nice, though). Perhaps on Marian feast days, especially during Processions - it's nice to have special hymns for special days. And, of course, there are other possibilities.

What exactly is the issue you perceive?

Fr. Serge

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Sorry--latin holdover. BTW...most every RC church in my area has the words "gathering hymn" either announced by the cantor, on service sheet if there is one, or in the bulletin. If the bishops are against the term, it's being ignored. Was in Maine recently and attended an RC church as there are no EC churches in Maine and the Orthodox one was too far, we got the regular "welcome" from the cantor ending with the words, "our gathering hymn today is number..." I think that "gathering hymn" is a reaction to what was done after VII when the first hymn was often announced with "please stand and greet our celebrant, Fr. X, with hymn number..."

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A question for EJKlages:

I see on your mission's website a photo of Father Deacon Ron Volek. I think I remember him from the Cleveland, Ohio area. Is he indeed a transplate from there?

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Do Orthodox have these "gathering" hymns? Sounds more like a borrowing from Latin practice.

At least speaking from my little Orthodox parish...we take the morning hours before the Divine Liturgy however, there is still normally a quiet period which we tend to fill with a marian hymn...

Chris

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Chris: Yes, that's exactly what I am talking about.

Father Serge, your blessing! I'm going to answer your questions back-to-front:


Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
A bias against hymn-singing? ... What exactly is the issue you perceive?

Many of our parishes have certainly kept a tradition of hymn-singing, not only on pilgrimage but during the censing before the Enarxis of the Divine Liturgy. When Matins or Hours are celebrated beforehand, there is still usually a gap during which hymns are often sung.

The issue I perceive runs as follows:

(a) Some vostochniki, converts and visitors have remarked "it's not traditional to sing hymns; one should have the Hours", etc. - which is not the whole story, and may introduce a false dichotomy for those parishes introducing other services, as to whether this means they must end hymn-singing at the same time.

(b) The new service book is QUITE large, and there was simply not enough room for any sort of representative collection of devotional hymns, especially if music were to be provided.

(c) Unfortunately, some here and elsewhere take the line that "our bishops want to take <x> away from us", and argue that the omission of hymns from the Divine Liturgies book was intentional, in order to PREVENT us from singing "our hymns" (as if most of them weren't being sung sans text anyway).

The latter runs parallel to the issue of Slavonic. The new books would have been HUGE had they included Slavonic as well. I have already seen the parallel Slavonic/English Divine Liturgy booklet in preparation (the principal hymns and responses, essentially), but elsewhere on this forum we're hearing:

1. The bishops want to prevent us from using Church Slavonic!
2. So they "took it away"!
3. They "claim" that for now we can sing from memory, and there will eventually be a hymnal with Slavonic, but they really don't mean it.
4. But - haha - we CAN sing from memory! We won!
5. Ooh! They're putting out a hymnal with Slavonic! We won again!

I just don't see much spiritual value in either argument, but I suspect that anything other than having Slavonic and devotional hymns ready for release back in January would have averted them.

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...are you familiar with J. M. Neale's Hymns of the Eastern Church?

I am; Neale did marvelous work, which has stood the test of time.

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The Greeks sing the Great Doxology at that point. One might sing the Polyeleos - which is quite lovely and solemn. And so forth.

In fact, the new service book provides the Great Doxology and Polyeleos, in English with music, in the small set of liturgical and Scriptural hymns at the back - and sessions at the Cantor Insitute have mentioned their use before the Enarxis.

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A Marian hymn would not seem altogether suitable, except perhaps on a Marian feast (one could also sing the Magnificat with its refrain, since that is sung during a great incensation). Or . . . but you get my general idea.

Since the bulk of our hymnody IS Marian, parishes that sing hymns will usually include them. The Cantor's Companion recommends that hymns chosen for singing before the enarxis are in accord with the service, the day, and Byzantine theology - though this has been made fun of here as disallowing Marian hymns (an over-reading, I think), it does seem to trend in the same direction you describe.

The Magnificat (in both English and Slavonic) is in the proposed hymnal, along with the Polyeleos (again, English and Slavonic).

I trust this has answered your questions!

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

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Dear Jeff,

So far as I can tell from your welcome response, we do not appear to disagree on this matter.

Fr. Serge

ByzKat #245210 07/16/07 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ByzKat
Since the bulk of our hymnody IS Marian, parishes that sing hymns will usually include them. The Cantor's Companion recommends that hymns chosen for singing before the enarxis are in accord with the service, the day, and Byzantine theology

I learned that one of the approved Marian hymns was "Immaculate Mary" from Fatima. Is this hymn actually in your approved hymn book and if so how does it reflect the Byzantine dogma of the Immaculate Conception?

Eddie

Anna #245212 07/16/07 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna
A question for EJKlages:

I see on your mission's website a photo of Father Deacon Ron Volek. I think I remember him from the Cleveland, Ohio area. Is he indeed a transplate from there?

Yes, he is. If you want to PM me with your full name, I will tell him you inquired. Or, I can send you his contact info.

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Dear Eddie,

See my response in the Revised Divine Liturgy forum, under "Implementing the New Liturgy: how we are doing it." Short answer: no, "Immaculate Mary" is not in the hymnal that is in preparation.

Jeff

Rufinus #245306 07/17/07 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Rufinus
What is a "gathering hymn"?

It sounds like someone somewhere is stuck in the 1970s/1980s. What is this obsession with sprinkling the Church with these trendy monikers. Parachute pants anyone?

How about "Anamnesis Acclamation?" That one had folks at my parish baffled.

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How about "Anamnesis Acclamation?" That one had folks at my parish baffled.

Was that the Celtic Acclamation by any chance? wink

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