www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Gonzales Knew About Patriot Act Abuses

Dear Br. Ed,

Although I agree with the first part of your post and understand the position you state, I cannot support this baseless 9/11 conspiracy theory. While you are completely right in pointing out that certain quarters benefit from the military complex and from exploiting 9-11, I must warn you that this conspiracy theory you mention has been thoroughly and completely debunked by non-governmental (even non-American) sources.

Here is one such refutation from Popular Mechanics magazine [popularmechanics.com].

Dear Brother Ed,

You posted the following:


The Spanish American War was the result of a newspaper war. I believe it was the New York Herald, and the New York Tribune, that tried to out do one another on attrocities committed by the Spanish. I might be wrong on the name of the newspapers, but not on two newspapers being the cause of the war. Hey, I was even taught that in school sixty years ago.


Hitlers party got off the ground and running because Germany was in a severe depression, caused by a failure (or so I believe) in the farms, as well as the reparations they were forced to make to France...not to mention that there was a world wide depression going on. People want to eat.

The Nationalist Socialist Party, (Nazi's) were a reaction to the riots caused by the Marxists, who by the way had taken over the government in Russia and now wanted to take over the world. Hitler came into power just about the time that Russia committed a forced famine on the Ukrainian people, exterminating anywhere from seven to eleven million people.

The Russians did not allow anyone to exit Ukraine or enter. No one had any idea about the famine...unless the Germans did. But with the Communist propagands full swing, who would have listened to the Nazi's. The Germans later on, with it's large population, wanted to expand into the fertile land of Ukraine and started eliminating people themselves, and take it for their own. One evil beget another.

As for our bombers not bombing certain industries, I don't think our bombers were capable of picking and choosing exactly what to bomb. They bombed at night. Hmmm! I also think they bombed civilians... right into the stone age they did. The English bombed during the day, and we bombed during the night...or so I think. As far as I know, the only building standing among all the great cities of Germany, was the one in Nurenburg where they decided to hold the trials. It was held over 30,000 dead bodies.

If you were to say that Pres. Roosevelt entered the war in order to pull us out of the depression, then you might have a case. to say though that we turned to a war economy for the corporations is rediculous. Or rather laughable!


I have no knowledge of this...but if you distrust the press, then that's your perogative. I do to, to a certain extent.


I guess they are all 'Daddy Warbucks'. Besides, Pres. Eisenhower had every right to be frightened. I heard that they pressured him to develop nuclear energy rather than solar energy. I'm not sure though. Have never been able to find it out as a fact.


Or some gullible individuals, who listen to foreign paranoia. Hmmm! Never thought of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln as liars? How monstrous our country is?


Huh?


Hmmm! Maybe it had to do with the way the buildings were constructed without any interior supports. The outer walls supported everything. I have never been inside, but those that have been, said that the open spaces and the feel of it was remarkable. Of course the buildings might have been destroyed for other reasons, after all the architecture said that they will be a tribute to 'man' and the heights he can reach. That he can achieve everything he wants ...or something to that effect. Wasn't something of that sort said about the Titanic, and that even God could not sink it? Anyway the buildings were ugly. They added some extra floors to the original plans, and they were eye sores. (Hmmm! Maybe it was an inside job. A distressed New Yorker).

New York City was appalled at them, and passed laws that from now on, new buildings must be aesthetically attractive on the top. It was too late though. They towered over everything, and destroyed the New York sky line forever...or so we thought.


There you go again, with your conspiracy theories. I guess the insurance companies love to just give away millions, without a thorough investigation. I guess there were explosives placed in the Orthodox Church of Saint Nicholas too?


I mentioned the way the buildings were built. The pentagon though, which is large enough to fit three Empire State Buildings inside, was going to be turned into a library after the war. For that reason, the floors were constructed to be far stronger than normal.


Okay you got me, I guess that proves it.


Says who? Frankly I can't even imagine a gas station across from the Pentagon. Do you know the size of the building?


Uhhh! I think some people on the plane were talking on the cell phone until impact.


Now this beats the cake. Did you expect the whole downtown area of NYC to sit around for ten years in order to have everything checked for a crime scene? Do you have any idea of the extent of the damage? The place was burning continuously for three months. Thousands of people throughout the New York area were sacrificing everything so that each piece of human tissue could be found and buried. It was Hiroshima all over again, and you didn't want the metal to be carted away?

Actually though, there was a scandal involved. It had to do with the sale of the metal, not because it wasn't investigated. Investigate what? Every piece was checked. The whole are was smoldering, and there was debris for miles around. People were not allowed to go into their apartments to feed their animals. They were left to starve for days on end, if not weeks...and you're telling me about examining a crime scene. Shame on you!


I just answered them. Now you answer my question:

Why would a President, who had come into office during a recession, and knowing that his Presidency depended on the economy of this country, (after all that's why his father wasn't re-elected), will willingly allow the economic center of this country to be destroyed, and risk throwing this nation into a depression?

God Bless,

Zenovia



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The fact of the matter is that the people of this country, including me, highly distrust our government. We have seen lie after lie after lie. We have seen these people acting in one interest only -- theirs. We have seen that money talks. And because money talks, people like Popular Mechanics can be bought off -- or threatened with their lives.

One commnet -- I read about the ban on bombing certain factories about 30 years ago. Some 10 years later I was in a small town outside Bradford PA and, while waiting for a business owner to show up, struck up a conversation with an old guy who was sitting on a step. Turned out that he was a bombadier who flew over Germany towards the end of the war. So I asked him if what I had heard about not hitting certain targets was true. He told me it was.

He also told me of being shot down and parachuting out into a no man's land. The Germans had left the area and the American forces had not gotten there yet. He told me that his crew began to head West to link up with American forces. That night, they made camp in a deserted farmhouse which, it turns out, had been used by the Germans, probably as an artillery spotting outpost. While they were rooting around looking for C rations, they found a German machine gun. On the bottom of it was printed MADE IN USA SINGER SEWING MACHINE. He told me that the men were profoundly (he used a quite more colorful adjective) angry when they discovered this.

But I suppose that he is just another whacked out "nutjob," right?

Yes, the "patriots" in our military industrial complex have been playing both sides of the fence for some time now. Anyone who doesn't see that doesn't WANT to see that. Patriotism is only as good as the color of your money.

I believe we have been betrayed over and over and over again -- and I wonder if the Americn people will ever wake up and smell the coffee that these scoundrels keep brewing.

As the old saying goes "We know that Saddam has WMD's. We sold them to him!"

Yeah.

Zenovia --

You know what makes me mad?

Someone is lying here. Either the people who did the Popular Mechanics piece or the research done by David Ray Griffin. Both cannot be right.

I don't trust the looney lefties out there because I know they have an agenda, which is nothing less than the destruction of this country and the killing of every Christian they can get their hands on. Party of Compassion my Aunt Minnie.

But I don't trust the hard nose righties either. They look upon us as so much fodder for their war machines. American Imperialism, serving the interests of a few mega bazillion dollar companies, seems to rule everything they do.

Zenovia -- you mention Bush entering the country as it was in a depression. What is better to end a depression than starting up the factories to grind out war materials? I really believe that we got on a war footing economy during WWII and once that happened, the powers that be were scared spitless to stand the factories down and return to "normal".

And I'm not blaming America alone, even though it seems like it. The whole world is crazy and doing this insane dance of death. All the big powers of the world seem determined to produce more and better weapons, they stand around and taunt and rattle their sabers at each other, and we are constantly watching a series of violent mini wars take place all over the world, such as with India and Pakistan.

It is enough to make one head for the hills and abandon the human race to its insanity.

Brother Ed,

Have you entered the monastery yet?

CDL

I thank Altar Boy for sharing his views. many of which are interesting.

However, I am reticent to embrace conspiracy theories on 911, especially the ones that suggest our government had something to do with either allowing it or actually planning it. For all of the criticisms I have of the administration, I do not believe they would on purpose kill American lives in this manner.

The other reason I want to stay away from certain conspiracy theories is that they muddy the water- the truth is bad enough! Attention to conspiracy theories tend to get linked to those who oppose the policies of the administration.

The truth is, we have an administration that does not respect the constitution of the United States, and has been embarked in a major power grab, trying to usurp authority over other branches of government.

Last night I saw on Bill Moyer's show a guest named Bruce Fein, a long time conservative and constitutional lawyer and scholar who is very concerned about how the administration has been operating. Fein is no lefty, he has solid conservative credentials, and he drew up the first article of impeachment against Clinton.

He believes President Bush should be impeached, and that the case for doing so is far more pressing than it was at the time of Clinton.

The Democrats and Republicans are both cowardly in regards to this administration. They need to seek impeachment.

The future of our democracy is at stake; the over-reaching of the Bush administration represents a constitutional crisis in the history of the United States.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Carson......you seem to wish me off this board, my brother!

No. There are many "loose ends" which need to be tied up, not the least of which is to be very sure that this is where the Lord is calling me. To that end, I have been reading books on the consecrated life and talking with my spiritual director.

I have turned in my resignation from my company, effective December 1 of this year, so that I can take a Sabbatical year. This will allow me to spend some longer periods of time at the monastery. My hope is that I will be able to spend 2 months in January and February. Fr. Abbott Leo suggested that I come out in the dead of winter to experience the quiet and solitude, which he is concerned about. He said that men at my age often have a hard time making the adjustment from a busy life to a life of contemplation.

And.....there is my sinfulness, which brokenness we all bear, but it gives me pause. I have read books that say that the monastery is the place that God uses to work the flesh out of us.

So....we are heading in that direction, but it shall be a while yet.

Brother Ed

Dear Brother ED,

I don't quite understand you here:

I said that there existed the concept that Pres. Roosevelt entered WW II in order to end the depression.

Actually, when you say the factories were scared to return to normal is foolishness. My parents had to put in their order for a new car two years in advance. The production couldn't keep up with the demand. What happened is that instead of the recession which was expected, people made so much money during the war, and weren't able to spend it because of the war time conditions, that at the end of the war, we ended up with a booming prosperity.

Thank heaven for that. We were able to save Europe from complete oblivion with our Marshall plan, (see if we were a truly bad nation, we would have colonized Europe and Japan). Of course we caused most of the destruction by bombing Germany, (the only truly productive nation), into the stone age. Then again, we and the English, killed twenty thousand French civilians in our invasion of Normandy. (No wonder they still hate us).

Also,when George Bush became president, we were in a recession. If he had not immediately lowered taxes, the destruction of the World Trade Center was so immense, and the costs to the insurance companies were so outstanding, that many small one's in Germany and Japan went broke, that it would have thrown us into a depression. Not to mention the economy in New York and it's vicinity.

A depression in America, will shortly become a world wide depression with millions if not billions of people starving. After all who will buy the goods that the Chinese depend on?

If you say that's not as bad as wars, then you have another guess coming. There is nothing like economic hardships to cause wars. Oh they'll be breaking out all over. People want to eat.

The Nazi party came into power in Germany because of the depression, and when we squeezed Japan economically because of it's actions in China, it attacked us. Basically we forced them.

India and Pakistan have been at war continuously. The problem is Kashmir, and when Islamic Pakistan gains all of Kashmir, it will start with the Muslim area's of northern India. Islam is a political/religious entity that believes it must control the world. There is no area bordering on an Islamic area/state that is not at war. That is reality!

God Bless,

Zenovia

Dear Lance,

I have to ask you a question. For what reason does the President want to embark a major power grab? Does Pres. Bush want to become king? If not, then could it be that circumstances exist, where these things are necessary in order to protect American lives?

I can't help but wonder if those that oppose Pres. Bush, actually are upset because we have not had another terrorist attack, so that they could blame him? Isn't that what they would do? Is their hatred towards him really because of those things, or because he happened to put conservative judges on the Supreme Court? Judges that might someday vote in a way that would not be towards their wanting.

I think it would be a good idea if you would start watching FOX news, a more conservative station. Probably the only one where you will get an opposing view. I admire FOX because it will have liberals on, where I have yet to see any of the other stations put on conservatives, unless they are more moderate liberals and passing them off as conservatives.

Hmmm! Is it any wonder they want to ban talk radio.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Brother Ed,

I pray for you often. I hope that you find joy and a place for real service to the world. I hope that you pray for me. I don't so much wish you off this board as off this topic. Conspiracy theories at this level make people seem a bit off balance. I know you to be a superb apologist and devoted Christian. Some of what you've written make you seem out of the loop.

CDL

Dear Brother ED,

And Singer was Jewish. You know I gave this much thought, and thought well maybe the machine guns were bought before the war through some other nation, but then I realized that the Germans were far superior to us in these things. Soooo! Could the possibility exist that it was a deliberate attempt to demoralize the Americans. Making them believe that the Americans were making the weapons that were killing them.

Even worse is the fact that we supplied the Soviet Union with the money to build up it's forces. I heard that one of the things that shocked the Germans were the Soviet tanks. They believed that the Soviets had about 5,000 tanks the most, and found that they had 20,000 tanks that were far superiror to their own.

Now where did they come from? Were they our tanks, or were they made with the money we supplied the Soveit Union with...thanks to Pres. Roosevelt. When Winston Churchill tried to influence Roosevelt to unite with him against Stalin, Pres. Roosevelt ignored him. Such was the propraganda of the Soviets. No one knew of the mass starvations Stalin caused. Even the killings of all the Polish military officers were assumed to be by the Germans. The Germans kept insisting that they did not do it, and more recently it has been found to have been the Soviets.

So much for propaganda. It's good to get opposing viewpoints once in a while.

God Bless,

Zenovia

I think we have said enough. Let's leave this alone. Bigger forces than any of us are at work here. I am just cynical, and that comes from the most minor of observances of the history of man and seeing the continual behavior patterns of men.

Honestly, I don't take a lot of joy or glee in thinking about these things, and quite frankly, I don't have the time to get involved with deep, deep study of all the voluminous mountains of papers out there. I am far more interested in writing manuscripts (with the goofy idea that perhaps someday I could get published), reading books, seeking God through prayer, and serving my parish and my fellow man than to run around spouting off about all this stuff.

Really.....I hope I'm wrong.

Bottom line.

Dear Altar Boy,

I want to mention something here that few people realize. We were very lucky with 911. The first plane crashed into the building about ten minutes after nine, when most people were just starting to enter the buildings. The train conductor of one of the trains underneath the buildings, realized something was wrong, and had the train continue past the station. That move saved anywhere from 1,000 to 2,000 people.

The few people that were in the buildings, were the one's that had certain positions requiring them to be there at an early hour, (such as the stock brokers), or were attending a meeting that was being held on a rooftop restaurant...not to forget the fire men that rushed in later from all over the city area, to save the people.

Had it happened one hour later, it would not have been 2,000 people dead, but probably closer to 20,000...the size of a small city.

God was certainly with us. I hope he continues to be, although I doubt it.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Zenovia,

thank you for your remarks.

Actually, I do watch Fox news all of the time. I listen to conservative radio when I can, there are certain commentators I can abide, like Hugh Hewitt and Michael Medved, others I cannot, because they are too mean, such as Michael Savage and Ann Coulter. So I think I get the conservative side in large doses.

My presets in my car include in this order: AM, Air America, Catholic Relevant Radio, the Local sports station, KFAN, a local conservative evangelical Christian Station, the Patriot, the local affiliate of Salem Broadcasting, which is conservative talk radio. On FM, I have public Radio NPR, and a variety of classic rock, alternative music, classical and Jazz.

My contention is, that the administration is trying to usurp more power for itself than is what is constitutionally mandated. We can't allow this and keep our democracy.

I reject the notion that he has made us more safe- I think the world is more dangerous, and the Iraq war has provided the greatest inducement for young radicals to join Al Queda.

But regardless, it is precisely in a time of crisis that we must be vigilent and guard our constitution. President Bush is wrong to say, "I am calling all of the shots." He is not a King, our founding fathers did not want the executive branch to become a monarchy. The Congress is a co-equal branch of our government leadership in our constitution. I am not going to surrender the Bill of Rights because I am afraid. Otherwise, the democratic experiment will fail. I do not criticize the President because "I hate him," but because he is not defending the constitution, but is acting against it.

By the way, here is a link to an article by a conservative constitutional lawyer, Bruce Fein (a conservative who drafted the first article of impeachment against President Clinton), calling for the impeachment of Vice President Cheney: http://slate.com/id/2169292/

and here: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07132007/profile.html





I want to challenge my friends who disagree with me at very least suspend the notion that this is about my personal feelings for the president, and to consider whether or not the argument that I am setting forth is a valid one.

Thank you for your respectful tone in your disagreement with me. AS always, Zenovia, whether we agree or disagree on a topic, it is a pleasure to dialog with you.

Best regards,

Lance

Dear Lance,

Yesterday I heard two experts say that similar powers were grabbed by Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War, and by Pres. Roosevelt during WW II. You will have to forgive me my age and failing short term memory, but I can't remember their names. They were on FOX News.

All in all, I think our safety and preserving human lives are more important, as it undoubtably was during our other wars.

God Bless,

Zenovia