www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Implementing the New Liturgy: how we are doing it.

Rusyn31,

Speaking of trouble, guess what? You are pushing it here. Your comments are unfounded. Either retract them as both sides have been allowed to post their opinions equally or your posting rights will be suspended.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

I retract my statement.

My comments may have been unfounded so I will retract them.

What I do not retract is my dedication to my Carpatho-Rus' Prostipinije, my Rusyn heritage, Slavonic Liturgy and what I think is being done to it. I do have a right to speak up about that.

Rusyn31,

Fine that is within your right, but both sides of the issue have equal say on the subject here. Certain topics are dedicated to certain points and that has to be understood.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Adminstrator

Fr. Anthony,

I did not mean to personally upset anyone, for that I am sorry.

Rusyn31
aka Dean Poloka

I understand.

Now that we're back on track, and before the substantive posts get lost ...

It's wonderful to hear a parishioner acknowledge the time and effort of his cantor. Many people don't realize that cantoring is actually hard work. Leading is a lot different than sitting in the pews and following. It takes practice both at home and before liturgy, and it takes guts to stand up there, not always sure that what's going to come out of my mouth is what my brain is telling my mouth to sing!

And it's even harder when one of the people out front is singing something other than what's on the page in front of them or think they can continue to sing without a book at all. When that happens, I start questioning whether I'm doing something wrong, and that can throw everything off! For that reason alone, it might be a good thing that not everyone out front is singing yet. Hopefully, they are listening and absorbing the new music, and when they feel comfortable, they will join in.

At my parish we began implementing the new music as soon as it was promulgated and we received the books. We started slowly, with all Option A. But after less than 6 months, we have branched out into other options. I cantor our Saturday vesper/liturgy, and many of the people are regulars. They were already used to singing the samolahsen tones, so we now do all eight tones of the Our Father corresponding to the tone of the week. We can also do the podoben Tone 4 Our Father. A few weeks ago, we also began chanting the psalms/alleluias instead of singing aliturgical Eucharistic hymns.

I prepare small "bookmarks" (printed 8 to a legal size page) with page numbers/options and place them next to the pew books on the greeting table at the back of the church. Several people have told me they are quite helpful. Calling out page numbers is an alternative, but I find that it is more helpful for the people to know the next page number ahead of time and be prepared to join in immediately. This is especially true for the Cherubic Hymn. They can find the proper page while we're still doing the Litany, and then concentrate on actually setting aside "all earthly cares."

Based on my experience at the vesper/liturgy I cantor, I can say that our people ARE singing the new music - at least those who used to sing the old music and we're all getting stronger every week!

Implementing the new DL: A four-week report

Glory be to Jesus Christ!

I�d just like to share some comments about my parish�s experience changing to the new Green books. Please feel free to comment.

Week One: The first week we used the new books, our pastor was out of town and so another priest celebrated liturgy for us. Overall, there was general confusion, too many page turn announcements, etc. However, overall no one expressed disgust or anything of the sort. Many people had positive comments. For example, one woman asked me about the different melodies and was happy to learn that we might try to expand our parish repertoire in the future by using different options (currently, we decided to use the melodies closest to the ones we were already singing, so we�re all over the place in different settings). At the end of Liturgy, I distributed about 6 CDs to the parish�s strongest singers with the music for the melodies that we use.

Week Two: We had a baptism this Sunday, so for the Enarxis the books were not even used. By the time it came to �All you who have been baptized,� everyone was pretty much caught up in the action of the baptism and chrismation, so we sang the melody with the old words. At the Gospel, we had a big problem singing �Glory be to...� instead of just �Glory to...� Also, the change from �And with your spirit� to �And to your spirit� was very messy. At the end of Liturgy, I distributed another 11 or 12 CDs.

Week Three: We had another baptism this Sunday, and the same thing happened at �All you...�- same melody, old words. This week at the Gospel, more people sang �Glory to...� instead of �Glory be to...� The Cherubic Hymn was a bit messy still (as it was the past two weeks), but by the third repetition of it before the Great Entrance people were essentially singing it fine. This week, the Creed sounded much better than the past two weeks. Before, about three-quarters of the people were still using the old wording, so there was a lot of clash. At the end of the Liturgy, our pastor made an announcement about using a card that I made as a guide for the books, and told the people that although we shouldn�t be keep our noses in the books normally, we should do so for the next couple of weeks in order to get used to using the new books and the new music/wording. People seemed generally receptive to this.

Week Four (earlier today): We had a special practice an hour before liturgy. We went over the music for the hymns for the day (all the Tone 5 propers) and the whole liturgy itself. Besides the cantors, some of the parish�s other strong singers were present. We plan to have another one of these next week at the same time.

No baptism this week. At the Enarxis, the people sang the first verse of each antiphon, and the cantors sang the second and third, to which the people responded with the refrain (the first week there was confusion over the antiphons, with the result that the first was sung with three verses and the other two with only one). We are still waiting for the Antiphon/Small Litany supplement from the MCI for our parish�s use. The �Holy God� was a bit slower than normal today, but picked up by the end of the second repetition. The absence of the �be� during the doxologies and before/after the Gospel was no longer really a problem. About 90% are no longer singing �be.� The Cherubic Hymn sounded much better. There was a tremendous improvement with the Creed. The Anaphora went off without a hitch, as did most of the rest of Liturgy. The worst point musically is still right before the people receive communion- people are still singing �God the Lord� instead of �The Lord is God�. We used a new melody for �Blessed be the name� (C instead of A as we did before).

I'd like to know who gave you permission to use additional antiphon verses; only one verse is given in the New Rite text and the directive in the foreward is very clear: I repeat Sole, as that is what The Book says.

I am quite serious about my question as I was clearly directed (the last time I served in a Ruthenian parish, that is) to take only exactly what was in the New Rite books and nothing outside of those books. After having sung the Antiphons with all of the provided verses for years as a cantor, as well as taking the Little Litanies in between as a deacon (as I do now in my UGCC parishes), I want to know if I was not given accurate and honest information.

Again, I will repeat that if any variation is allowed by the hierarchy, then the absolute value of "sole liturgical text" comes into serious question.

Father Deacon,

Glory be to Jesus Christ!

I can't answer you for sure. All I know is that when it came time for the second/third verses of each antiphon, the cantors intoned the verses as they have done ever since they started to serve as cantors at our parish.

Perhaps they decided to continue as before since various people at the MCI have promised to release an antiphon-supplement type booklet.

In regards to the whole question of "sole liturgical text", I'm really not competent to answer or debate this. My only purpose in posting my mini-report was to share with members of the community certain problems we have encountered thus far with the new text and music, some of the steps taken to solve the problems, and how our parish has progressed since week one.

Mark T.

Mark, thanks, I didn't mean to put you "on the spot", but it seems the new book is quite clear about "sole text". I am trying to determine if that provision is being enforced equitably and if, in fact, it is the SOLE TEXT.

We're implementing it quite well, thank you.

BTW, again we may be getting off the topic of "implementation" of the RDL. In an attempt to get back on course, when our parish began to phase in usage, we started with introducing approximately 10-20 pages per Sunday. This included stating beforehand where to place ribbons and announcing pages during the liturgy. Of course there was some confusion because people were getting accustomed to a new book, revised text and some changed music.

Presenting the similarities between the music presented in the new book to the music we were using at our Slavonic liturgy I believe has made the conversion easier. I also believe the congregation in general is happier to now have books which include the musical notation.

Less announcements have been needed each week and we have gone to handouts downloaded from the MCI for the propers (this results in less page flipping). Also printed were card stock bookmarks which indicate which versions of hymns (with page numbers) that will be used for the approx. eight weeks between July 29th and the Feast of the Dormition.

Time again for me to poke my nose out from under my rock....

I have an amazing amount of energy I am dying to expend on this topic, but, since I am quite sure it will have me permanently banished from the forum... I'll save my queries for Outpust when I am sure there will be plenty of people to ask the same questions....

my current pondering? Just how many people will actually sing at any of the services .. other than the Rusyn Slavonic liturgy on Sunday morning... well, that is unless they take that away from us too.

my rebel statement? Sit quietly in your pews... pray with your priest... and wait for Rome to slap some sense, and reason into a few people. I'm still wondering just what was in the Hookah pipe during the RE-translation and addtion of politically correct trash.

Help!

I just spent last evening talking to my family up north. Since this is a thread about implementing the new worship, I have some questions.

My aunt's cousin was a cantor in a Byzantine Catholic church I guess. he no longer is. They were upset at the heavy handed way the cantors were instructed by their church to follow the new liturgy and accompanying hymn book or else.

Their church published a hymn book that includes only those hymns they are allowed to sing before and after the worship service(?). Many of the hymns they were used to singing all the years are now forbidden. My aunt said that they were hymns sung in Slavonic too that they learned growing up.

During a seminar a few months ago, the instructor told them thta if they didn't want to follow it they could leave. My aunt's cousin was greatly upset. They felt like a bunch of children being disciplined.

Their pastor ignores it all and still worships as he wishes. When visiting priests are there he changes things to the way his church demands. When they are gone he goes back to they way he has been doing it before the mandate.

My aunt is greatly upset. the hymn book they received doesn't even have notes in it. They sang a Latin hymn from it yesterday.

Whta to do? How to counsel such people? Is this how it is being implemented elsewhere?

Administratr/Moderator: If this is considered not in line with the topic of the thread, please feel free to create a new thread.

Eddie