www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Poll: Where do you stand on the RDL?

Many of the Holy Martyrs joyously accepted martyrdom because of words.
Are we called to obey a bishop if we know him to be in error? Is blind obedience part of the Tradition?

Okay......

May I have the proof that there have been words either added or subtracted which are creating a danger to my soul?

Thank you.

Brother Ed

I am not the one to tell you if something may be a "danger to your soul". Study the reformed Liturgy. Carefully mull over every revision in the green book. If you are at peace with the additions and deletions, then may God bless you. I feel that modernism is today's heresy and I believe that the Ruthenian reformation an extreme example of modernism in many ways. I am not at peace...and so I must follow my heart and conscience.

100 have voted. Thank you for expressing your opinion!

Ungcsertezs (cyberwar soldier )

I know several people who have or are being received into the Orthodox church now because of the RDL changes and the modernism they represent.

Tim

So do I. But I wonder if the rephrasing of some words is equal to modernism. I think if you want to see modernism in full view, take the Roman Church and place the Traditional Mass prior to VII alongside the Novus Ordo and do a comparision. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

Other than the changes to the Creed, which reek of feminist modernism, I just don't see it. The music is written differently, the antiphons are different, but are they "God denying"?

I don't see it.

1) If you feel that the Roman Church has surrendered to modernism, do not forget that you are in communion with that Church.

2) Inclusive language is modernism. It is not only in the Creed. Jesus Christ is no longer referred to using the acient title, "Lover of Mankind". The Ruthenian Church now says that He "loves us all". And of course Jesus Christ does love us all, but the traditional title of our Lord was changed and watered down so that the Church might seem more politically correct in "modern" times. This change has been instituted throughout every prayer, every Tropar.....everything!

We now have our own Novus Ordo! You say that the change in the Creed "reeks of feminist modernism". Even if that was the only example of modernism in the reformed Liturgy, can that be overlooked? Is it okay if there is only one instance?

You may not see it, but I do.

Recluse,

Well put!

U-C

Yes, changing a few words does matter enormously. Think of what an iota did for the creed. Adding, substituting or deleting words can have profound effects on the meaning of a phrase. It is also useful to recall that the traditions of the church are interrelated to reinforce the underlying theology of the faith.

I have seen the effects of numerous small changes in wording and emphasis can do to a church when I was a member of the Episcopal Church. The EC had been a traditional church up to about 40 years ago when numerous seemingly innoucuous changes began to appear under the guise of being culturally sensitive ( ie. feminism, gender issues, general PC causes to numerous and or ephemeral to mention) Modernism is an heir to a humanist philosophical thought that is largely agnostic/athieist in character that derives it's relevence from popular culture. It is not necessarily hostile to religion but it does endevor to change the character of the religion to it's own mindset to the exclusion of traditional forms and beliefs.

Those who espouse Modernism in my experience are absolute masters of double speak and verbal slight of hand (Anglican Fudge or Episcobabble to our former piskie readers ) In order to bring about change in the EC they had been extremely careful to avoid drastic changes (relative to Episcopalianism)to keep the house together. In 2003, when the house finally blew, light was finally cast upon the years of accumulated changes and what was revieled was unrecognizable as Christianity. (in the traditional sense)

I reccomend to everyone who is able to take a course in philosophy or a course in theology to get a good foundation in this arena. Unfortunately our public schooling today short changes us in this area. I took a course on the Theology of the Trinity last semester and found it to be an excellent pirmer on neo-platonism. (My brain is still sore after that one though, philosophy is no cake walk)

I am not saying by any means that all change is bad. However, I strongly recommend looking at the change and finding out what are the changes and from what source. Traditionalists will look from within the tradition onto build the culture of the faithful. Modernists will seek to change the tradition from the popular culture. If the changes are not derived from the tradition I strongly recommend being suspicious and to look harder and be vocal if necessary. This Devil we are facing is very crafty.

I just posted a new thread in the RDL thread:


I am putting it here for others to see.

What father allows His children to be hurt to the point of losing their very lives? I realize that I am but an ant (less...an atom, a quark) in the universe, but I am a rational being who has been told that I must make decisions as part of my faith. I do not at all appreciate being put in a maelstrom of deception, lies and rhetoric from both sides and then told that if I make the wrong choice, I may very well go to hell.

Where is my Father?

Brother Ed

Excellent post, St Anthony. God bless you!

Yes, good post indeed.

Ungcsertezs

IMHO I think that the Byzantine Catholic Churches should use the rite of the Old Believer Churches...

The idea of using the pre-Nikonian rite attracts me, but the thought of trying to enforce it on people does not.

That said, is anyone with good Church-Slavonic interested in collaborating on a translation of some of the Old Rite texts? And can anyone read kriuki well enough to transpose them into a more accessible notation?

Fr. Serge

I'll help translate some of the prayers into Greek so that the Greeks can adopt the Old Rite too! Whee!