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Do the Greek Orthodox consider the Western Catholic rites of Holy Orders to be valid?

Please recast the question - it's a complicated matter. Eastern Orthodoxy is not altogether comfortable with the idea of "validity" in the first place, and is certainly not happy with the suggestion that a given "rite" might be "valid" without taking into account who has served this "rite" and in what ecclesial context.

Fr. Serge

I myself, do not not know the official answer to that question.

I can tell you that here in New England, at least the Greek and Russian Orthodox clergy (including bishops) operate on a daily basis as considering Roman Catholic Holy Orders and sacraments as genuine.

The lone area of non-agreement is a primacy of the Roman Pontiff. Local Orthodox clergy teach (during conversions) that the Roman Patriarch is equal to other Patriarchates (end of story).

Converts are not re-baptized. The official position may or may not require it I do not know - but I know it is not done.

Orthodox priests and deacons sometimes teach within Roman Catholic seminaries.

Catholics may not receive the sacraments within Orthodox churches (under any circumstances) but Orthodox may receive in Catholic churches under certain circumstances (I am not aware that any do).

Clergy (even at the bishop level) are very sociable on and off the golf course. They attend each other's ordinations and funerals.

The public and social institutions (hospitals, etc..) treat them as equals.

Some Orthodox clergy speak privately of the desire (in the Orthodox world) for the figure of the primacy of Peter. Certainly Pope John Paul II was admired by all. I do not know the percentage that feel this way. It may be small.

On my death bed it would not matter to me which came to give me God's forgiveness and blessing to see me on my way home.

-ray

My understanding is a Catholic priest converting to Orthodoxy would be both chrismated and ordained (if he was to continue as a priest). I think taking that in to consideration, one would have to assume the answer to the question posed in this thread is no.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

There is a story about a meeting of a Catholic Cardinal and an Orthodox bishop.

The conversation went as follows:

Cardinal: �Your Grace, do you recognize me as a Cardinal�?
Bishop: �Of course, Your Eminence.�
Cardinal: �Do you recognize me as a Bishop�?
Bishop: �Of course, Your Eminence.�
Cardinal: �Do you recognize me as a Priest�?
Bishop: �Of course, Your Eminence.�
Cardinal: �Do you recognize me as a baptized Christian�?
Bishop: �Well, perhaps we should not be too hasty about that��



Deacon El

My understanding would be that, technically, assuming the Pan-Orthodox decrees of 1755 are considered to have some sort of authority in Eastern Orthodoxy, that Greek Orthodox do not, for the record, recognize Catholic Holy Orders, or any other sacraments. I would think that would especially have to hold for diaspora Greek Orthodox insofar as they are under the authority of Constantinople, which did ratify the 1755 decrees.

However, even given that, I would think that under oikonomia, many Orthodox, including the Greek Orthodox, might accept the sacraments already administered to Catholic converts to Orthodoxy.

I would guess one extra complication to keep in mind on a question regading the Greek Orthodox is there could be jurisdictional distinctions between those in Greece vs. those in the disapora, due to possible differing authority that the two exist under.

Best,
Robster

Slava Isusu Khrestu

Hello

[Catholics may not receive the sacraments within Orthodox churches (under any circumstances) but Orthodox may receive in Catholic churches under certain circumstances (I am not aware that any do).]

What happens in mixed marriages where one partner is Orthodox in this case Greek Orthodox and the other is Roman Catholic. Here in my community the marriages are held in the Orthodox church of the one partner. You see our Orthodox community is small and many of our young people find partners in other denominations and strangely ( meant in a nice way )usually among Roman Catholics.

Now my questions which may sound silly but here goes:

!. Does only the Orthodox partner receive the sacrament of marriage?

2. What, if any, does the other Roman Catholic partner receive?

3.In the eyes of the Orthodox church then is there a marriage or some kind of civil contract sanctioned by the church?

In regards to sacrament of Holy Confession:

1. Would an Orthodox priest refuse to hear the confession and give absolution to a Roman Catholic who was dying?

2. Would an Orthodox priest refuse to hear the confession of a Catholic penitent who was in desperate need of help because no Roman Catholic priest was available?

Lastly, If the Lord came down to earth tomorow and wanted to go to church to pray, where would He go?

Thank you

Z Bohom
Nycholaij

[quote=Garajotsi]Slava Isusu Khrestu

Hello

[Catholics may not receive the sacraments within Orthodox churches (under any circumstances) but Orthodox may receive in Catholic churches under certain circumstances (I am not aware that any do).]



I thought it was the other way around.oh, well.
Much Love,
Jonn

If I understand the quote above correctly, it is wrong; Catholic can receive Orthodox sacraments in dire circumstances, if the Orthodox clergy is willing. That is my understanding.

It is true that the Catholic Church will allow Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, and Polish National Church Christians to receive the Eucharist, provided that they have permission from their pastor. Of course this allowance is almost meaningless, since the Church also admonishes believers from these other Church's to respect the discipline of their church, and in every case, they are not allowed.

Well, perhaps generally speaking...
Here in Finland the catholics in the northern town of Oulu twenty years ago were allowed to recieve the holy communion in the local orthodox cathedral - because their parish center was then far away.
The deal was made by the orthodox metropolitan and the catholic bishop of Finland.
Nowadays there is a catholic parish even in Oulu so the practice at least there is history...

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean.

I'll ask another question.

If a Catholic bishop converted to Greek Orthodoxy would the he be reordained and consecrated, or would his previous ordination and consecration be considered "real"?

He would come in as a layman.

Re marriage;

My understanding of the marriage issue is based on what I have heard about, I don't know the official rules. I do believe an Orthodox Christian can get married to someone who is not Orthodox (but has trinitarian baptism) in the church as long as it is agreed the children will be raised Orthodox. I believe it is frowned upon at least for an Orthodox Christian to marry outside the church, and in some cases can lead to their removal from communion with the church.

I know several intermarried couples where one spouse (the wife in every instance I've seen) has not converted for whatever reason. The children however have been baptized and raised in the church. The spouse who has not converted does not receive communion.

The Catholic bishop becoming Orthodox would come in as a layman? Do tell. To the best of my limited knowledge, that last happened in 1839, and the three bishops involved were all received as bishops, as the priests who came with them were all received as priests. There was no semblance of "re-ordination".

After World War II, in several countries the Greek-Catholic Church was severely persecuted. This time around, no bishops went to the relevant Orthodox Church, but a sizeable number of priests did. No one was re-ordianed.

It would be child's play to document similar cases in the USA. I refrain from doing so, because I have no wish to embarrass people who are probably still alive.

Contrariwise, though, it is not difficult to find cases in which this or that Catholic cleric was re-ordained. As I said earlier, this is not the sort of question which lends itself to easy answers. Please do not blame me; I merely report the facts.

Fr. Serge

So there is no unity among the Eastern Orthodox about whether or not Western Catholic orders are valid?

No, there is not. There are a variety of opinions about the "validity" of non-Orthodox sacraments. If I had become Orthodox though the Greek Church, I likely would have had to be re-baptized and my wife and would have had to be re-married. In the Antiochian Church, chrismation is considered sufficient to validate one's baptism and marriage. Though, we do have the option at some point of going through the crowning ceremony again. We might do it just as a rededication of our marriage. Perhaps, on our next anniversary.

Joe