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Mar 25th, 2025
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Subdeacon Borislav, And I don't think the modern Popes of Rome would disagree either!
And yet, there is some kind of unity which Christ obviously did desire, and prayed for at the Last Supper.
And that kind of unity is what I mean (and what I think the Church of Rome means) when it speaks today of the Petrine Ministry. Absolutely my friend, but this does not mean there is a need for domination of one Bishop over the others. Besides the Roman Catholic Church knows even greater schisms and breaks of unity than that of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am now speaking of Protestantism. I think that we will both agree that protestantism is the child of Roman Catholicism. In fact to me the first form of Protestantism is Roman Catholicism. This astute observation was made both by Mr. Homiakov and Bishop Kalistos Ware and I could not agree more. In a later post, Gordo mentions the words of Christ to Peter which accompany Christ's own prophecy that Peter was about to deny him: "and thou, when thou hast recovered, strengthen thy brethren". I happen to like the English: "bolster thy brethren". It means to "support them", "help them". The concept of dominance is not there; "dominance" seems to be an a priori that is not entailed by Christ's words. As to Protestantism: It is certainly a Western phenomenon from an historical viewpoint. Is there a good analogy between Roman Catholic/Orthodox :: Protestant/Roman Catholic? I don't see it at all. Protestants rejected the notion of a Church hierarchy because that hierarchy is based on the Sacrament of Orders, etc., etc. Cardinal Newman has dealt with all that better than I ever could. Thanks. Michael
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Orthodoxy has begun to witness Protestant infiltrations - examples of modern Protestant, ex-Orthodox Churches (who are commonly now referred to Protestant Orthodox churches or Reformed Orthodox churches): the Ukrainian Lutherans, the Marthoma Syrians, and the Ethiopian Tehadeso church. I'll sadly suggest there are more to come, since they've now infiltrated Iraq, Russia, and more.
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Dear Michael,
Ah, but the Ukrainian Lutherans have been around for a while - they were former UGCCers who formed before the Second World War as a result of disagreements with their hierarchs.
Interestingly enough, Ukrainian movements of schism, whether toward Protestantism or Orthodoxy, almost always begin when a group of people "have it out" with their bishop.
For example, the Ukrainian Orthodox autocephalist movement in Canada began in earnest after an "out" with Bishop Nikita Budka - this got the movement off to a solid start and ultimately 90% of all Ukrainian Orthodox in Canada today are descended from Ukrainian Catholics.
Alex
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Dr. Alex,
Sometimes the bishops make it too easy to have an "out", some even going so far as to instigate - i.e. Bishop Ireland. Who are the Ukies of Canada under, the EP or one of the Patriarchs of Kiev?
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Gordon, please look at some of the changes that were made in the Byzantine Rite Catholicism. The loss by many of things like The Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts, changes in the Holy Liturgy....
Aren't these direct results of the union with Latin Catholicism? In short, the answer is no. The loss of these things is not a direct result of union. If they were, there would be no fixing them and clearly there are remedies and remedies that are currently being pursued. I think that latinization is one of the things that Pope John Paul II apologized for as a sin against the East. Given that apology and a half century now of movement toward repentance and repair, when will Orthodoxy give up this grievance and say "go and sin no more"? What will it take?
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The RDL stands as a glaring example of instead of Latinization, the BCC is now headed in a Protestant direction. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Alexandr
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The RDL stands as a glaring example of instead of Latinization, the BCC is now headed in a Protestant direction. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Alexandr Please expand your acronyms as I simply don't understand your objections.
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The RDL stands as a glaring example of instead of Latinization, the BCC is now headed in a Protestant direction. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Alexandr Please expand your acronyms as I simply don't understand your objections. RDL = Revised Divine Liturgy BCC = Byzantine Catholic Church Peace and God bless!
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