www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall health care system would cover abortions

Well, if big brother isn't really going to help with the problems, and private industry certainly isn't, then maybe we should resign ourselves to the fact that society is horrible, always has been horrible, and always will be horrible. Perhaps, this world is supposed to be a horrible place, since it reminds us that this is not our true home. This is a trial and a "veil of tears," and perhaps having good living conditions is a bad thing since it turns people's eyes away from God and makes them complacent. It would be interesting to see if their is an inverse correlation between religiosity and life expectancy.

Joe

I think here many people are confusing society with government. I believe in community and society. I believe that society WILL take care of the poor.

I just don't believe in the use of force unless it is in defense of life and property.

Nathan:

Have you ever lived in the South? Have you ever lived anywhere other than Minnesota? There are many places in the South (where I have lived my entire life) where financial resources are so scarce that communities/the society lack the resources to take care of the poor.

As far as your assertion that you don't believe in forcing people to pay for government intervention "unless it is in defense of life and property," what about roads? What about the air traffic control system? What about people who think that the last several wars in which we've engaged were unjustified-do we get to opt out of paying taxes because we disagree with the judgment of the President (not just the current President)? Take any of the huge array of things for which taxes are used and you will find some segment of the population that doesn't need or want that particular service, but that doesn't give you the right to "opt out," just because you personally object. If we have not yet reached a point where a majority of Americans want a national health care system, I submit we're not far from it. However, I would propose this alternative for those who think the private health insurance industry (which I believe to be thoroughly despicable) is so wonderful: an option to opt out of the system and the benefits it would provide, then you could claim your insurance premiums (which will only continue to soar into the sky, as the greed of the health insurance industry asymptotically approaches infinitude) and your out of pocket health expenses as tax deductions. As more and more employers (who are gradually joining the chorus of voices crying out for a national system) cut back or even drop health benefits entirely, the demand will only increase. I believe it is inevitable, I believe it serves the purpose of the common good, and, in spite of the flaws the system will surely have, I will welcome its arrival.

Ryan

Ryan,

I think that you are right. I do think that it is inevitable. Also, I'm beginning to rethink, again, whether to vote for Obama. I would hate for the government to pay for abortions, but there are many things I hate that the government pays for. And, since I think that people are going to get abortions anyway, it seems that there is really not much to be done. I don't think that we are going to win in the war against abortion and in the meantime, millions of other people will suffer because of Republican economics.

Joe

It is a fact that governmental support of an action increases that action's acceptability and availability. Abortions, cigarettes, and interracial marriages are all recent examples in the US which show significant increase or decrease in public opinion on their acceptability relative to when the government widened or limited their availability.

I have lived in:
Minnesota, Poland, and Russia. If a place is not providing the needs you need, there are many other states you can move to.


I'll take these first, because war is next and a different subject. First of all, I'm not an anarchist. I believe there is a limited roll in the government. You can either use a gas tax, or tolls, or a combination of. Neither of these options forces a user at the end of a barrel to pay.

Air Traffic control could be privatized, but if you convinced me otherwise it can be paid by a tax on airline travel.


If a war is just, and a majority of people back the war, then there will be no problems funding it, though I see a small government without a standing army a lot less likely to go to war. Just like buying war bonds in the old days. Also, when we become a defensive nation, the citizens will be amply armed, like Switzerland, to defend any attacks.[/quote]




I have a modification on this idea. Everyone who doesn't agree with the plan doesn't have to pay into it in the first place, and the government deregulates the health care industry.

Nathan

Interracial marriages? Why did you pick interracial marriages to group with abortion and cigarettes? Please tell me you are not a bigot.

Joe

Those who are destitute can simply pick up and move to another state on a whim?

Joe

Nathan:

You wrote, "If a place is not providing the needs you need, there are many other states you can move to."

Now I'm really feeling the compassion and charity for the poor! What about those who lack the financial resources even to move? Such people really do exist.

Ryan

Mass emmigrations of poor people happened before, so I would hope people in our day in age can move to a different state.

If my ancestors made from Norway to the middle of North America with their money, I think it's doable today.

Okay, so I take it that when masses of unwashed, jobless, poor, undereducated, and ill folks start wandering the highways, you won't complain? We won't hear about the vagrancy problem in this country? Or, about how the bottom feeders in one state are trying to move and sap the resources out of another state?

Joe

I do not agree, there is an influx of immigrants to the Twin Cities from Chicago at the moment.

I'm sorry if my view of the cost of a bus ticket has made me seem less charitable. My ancestors had a ticket and a suitcase.

Did your ancestors live in a time where you could be thrown in jail for wandering around in a strange city without proper identification? Did your ancestors live in a time when no one would rent to you without extensive credit check, criminal background check and references from current employers/landlords?

Joe

I am not a bigot.

What I said is that the government passing a law allowing or disallowing something (or widening or lessening its availability) has a direct impact on its acceptability in public opinion and availability in society. I was not comparing the moral worth of interracial marriage to that of abortion (which is an opposite), but of the effects governmental involvement has on social opinion and availability.

When the laws forbidding interracial marriage were rescinded, the public's opinion of the acceptability of interracial marriage increased. The same is true when abortions were made legally acceptable; public opinion on their moral acceptability increased. As laws are passed which make cigarettes less available, public opinion on their acceptability decreases. You said that people are going to have abortions anyway, so what does it matter if it is through the public or government's funding. I said that history has proven government involvement in moral issues shapes the public's opinion on those issues. It is true whether the moral action is positive (interracial marriage) or negative (abortion).

This is the entire premise behind Affirmative Action laws.

Thank you for clarifying. I wasn't accusing, but I was asking and you have answered.

Joe