www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Urgent Questions for the Very Rev. Archpriest David M. Petras, SE

Sorry, I'm not a member of the BCC and really don't have any "skin in this game" but...I have corresponded with members of the commission who claim they had very little to do with the translations...and have distanced themselves from it...Fr. David seems to be the only one who strongly supports it...it also seems to have the "same flavor" of the recensions put forward in Parma and Passaic under Bishop Andrew...who I have been told over the years Fr. David had a major role in...I think you are greatly downplaying Fr. David's role...that being said...I commend Fr. David for participating on the forum...everyone else seems to be distancing themselves from it...

Chris

I thank you, Father Petras for posting on this thread. It makes many of us feel much better to know that we are at least heard and our feelings taken into account.

I agree that there should not be any bashing or personally negative comments made about you or anyone else. I have tried to refrain from doing that and if I haven't, I ask your forgiveness.

I can understand your reticence to respond, since when you do it seems to spark problems and people jump all over you and your responses may be taken out of context or misunderstood. Which only makes things worse.

But surely you do see how it only makes you, Prof Thomson and the Eparchs look bad when people ask questions and only get silence in return? E-mails not answered, phone calls not returned, snail mail letters not even acknowleded. When feelings are hurt, people tend to react strongly. Sometimes they take it personally and respond in kind. Hence the personal remarks. I've heard the expression that anger is actually hurt feelings turned sideways.

I, for one, have sent more than one personal e-mail to you, asking some questions. Not only this forum, but to you directly at the verizon e-mail address listed on the Seminary website. Maybe it's an old address, but it never bounced back as undeliverable. Perhaps you never received them for other reasons. But I'm sure you can understand how frustrating it is when communication after communication is not effective, for whatever the reason. That is why I was so glad to see your response on the forum.

Whether people agree with you or not, I'm sure we feel better knowing you are at least aware of our existence and our thoughts on the matter.

Slave Isusu Christu!
Slava na Viki!

Tim

Again, he had a major role in this reformation and he is the only one from the commission that has been gracious enough to attempt to defend the revisions. You see people that are disgruntled--you are correct. I see people (including myself) that have been scandalized. This is the only place we can vent our feelings because our voices are not heard and our letters thus far have been ignored. Some may become disheartened enough to seek reception into the Holy Orthodox Church--and I certainly understand this because I am discerning the call myself. It is not analogous to the protestants. It is not about "not getting our way". It is about having a pierced conscience and a heavy heart because of a true belief that the Ruthenian Catholic Liturgy has been compromised by a modernist agenda (amongst other things). Some people do not adhere to blind obedience when their conscience has been damaged.

If you are at peace with the changes, then may God bless you abundantly. But do not denigrate those who have been deeply injured by this reformation.

Peace,
R

What do you mean by this?

byzanTN,

Could you please provide a list of BCA Bishops and Parishes that were obeying the 1965 Full Liturgy, Rubrics, etc. from Rome prior to 2007?

Monomakh

The quote within the quote box about Fr. David's role was from someone else.

I don't know of any that were doing the full liturgy. For what it's worth, our liturgy is now longer and more complete with the new books than it was with the old ones. I do understand the unhappiness some feel over the changes. However, I have friends that were devastated by changes in the Latin church mass that made our changes look miniscule in comparison. They didn't cut and run, but they persevered, prayed, and worked to get the Latin mass back. Now Pope Benedict has given it back to them. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

Please accept my thanks for this welcome compliment!

Fr. Serge

It can take an entire generation to correct mistakes that never should have ocurred in the first place. That is the lesson.

Bless, Father,

You are quite welcome. Every member of the Ruthenian Catholic Church should read your book. In fact, every Eastern Catholic should read your book (I also recommend Archbishop Raya's book on the Liturgy). Your book chronicled every error of the RDL from many perpectives. What you have offered is priceless. Fr Petras attempted to refute some of your research on his website, but it is impossible to refute the truth--in my opinion, his refutations were very weak. If all Ruthenian Catholics would read your book, there would be wholesale outrage and the Hierarchs would have no choice but to rescind the RDL or watch the Church cease to exist. Perhaps we should be making a grassroots effort to get this book into the hands of every God-loving Byzantine Catholic.

I cannot thank you enough for this edifying and enlightening work.

Kissing your right hand,
Recluse

Yes, it can take a generation or longer to correct things that should have happened differently. The lesson, however, is to work constructively to change the things you think need changing. Yes, some may have a need to vent, but whining doesn't change anything. If anything, it causes the bishops to dismiss the complainers as chronic whiners who can not be made happy. What I read on this forum is the same 4 or 5 people who find nothing good to say about much of anything. Put the energy into something constructive remembering that prayer is also an essential element. Also, pick battles wisely. Some of the complaints I read here are on the level of "Fr. no longer wears the correct Slavic shoelaces." I suspect that with the RDL some changes will stand the test of time and endure while others may not last. In order to get average people to work for change, the work has to be directed toward something that is worth the effort to change. However, the Latins have proven that change is not impossible for those who believe and are dedicated.

Again, there is no other venue for those against this reform to let their voice be heard. If you are perceiving it as whining, and it disturbs you, then you are free to visit other areas of the forum. Your accusations will not stop the voice of those who have been injured in heart and conscience. The people who are injured are doing everything they can to change what has happened...now...not a generation later (the Latin Church has taught us a lesson). We are writing letters to Rome asking that the RDL be rescinded. And we are praying. That is the most we can do.

Peace and blessings,
R

I am not disturbed by much of anything anymore. Maybe there is a serenity that comes with age. Unfortunately, I perceive some of what I read on this forum as a waste of time in terms of it ever resulting in any real change. If you are praying, that's always good. I'm still trying to get some real figures on how the RDL is being implemented and accepted in the parishes. There's a poll going on, but the numbers are too small to be significant. I have long suspected that the majority of Byzantines neither post on, nor care about this forum. So it is possibly not respresentative. Some write of how the RDL is not accepted by some of the people they know in their small parish. However, sentiments in a small parish don't necessarily represent the majority of the Byzantine Catholic Church. It's difficult to objectively assess the impact of the RDL, and much of what I am reading is a bit overwrought.

I am happy that you are at peace.

Sounds good to me - and the publishers will love it! But there is one problem: by dint of some herculean efforts, it is at least notionally possible to provide each literate member of the Pittsburgh Metropolia with a copy of the book. But there is no earthly way of making sure that the lucky recipients will actually read it.

This also applies to Papal Encyclicals and similar documents.

Thank you again - such compliments are always most welcome.

Fr. Serge

Recluse, although I cradle Catholic, I spent some time in the fundamentalist/evangelical world. I have been around church splits (I know they happen in our Catholic and Orthodox Churches, too). I identify that mentalility of picking up one's marbles and leaving the game when things don't suit us with the American individualistic mentallity.

Please know, I do respect the consciences of those who have left our Metropolia because of the RDL; I too, have thought about becoming Orthodox, but for other reasons.

So if you or anyone else leaves because of the RDL, I am not picking on you. Anyone who has read my posts knows I am sympathetic to people who join the Orthodox Church.

But I am only saying this for myself, that it would feel like a case of picking up my marbles and going to a different playground if I in particular would leave because of the Divine Liturgy.

As disappointing as some renderings and translations are in the RDL, I do not see that they are necessarily heretical, and should lead to me leave. But I respect those who do.

However, I would also caution anyone to seriously discern whether they should leave over the RDL- is it really a good reason to leave?

We should not change religions or Church's like we change shirts, as an Orthodox friend of mine once said.

Finally, anytime I have come close to joining the Orthodox, I have had either Orthodox lay people or priest caution me that they are dealing with frustrations too, either of the same nature or a different nature.

I guess if I were ever to leave the Metropolia and join the OCA, I would have to have a better reason at this point than some of the disappointing translations in the RDL.

Blessings,

Lance