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Dec 29th, 2019
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'Originally Posted By: Father David
'Separate from these issues, I would add a persoanl reflection. I have become convinced that the reason "men" was used in the English language to mean both "men" and "women" is that before the 20th century, "women" simply had no standing in the body politic of "mankind." They did not vote and were not expected to take part in public affairs, therefore, their status was "meaningless." In the context of the late 18th century, therefore, the statement "All men are created equal" means exactly what it says.'
I found this to be the most galling of apologias for the new liturgy. Many of the new translations I dislike come from Greek rather than Slavonic, and I recognize that I don't have a leg to stand on in criticizing these revisions--beyond e.g., noting that meaningful differences between "sublime" and "magnificent" escape me.
However as a sometime teacher of American history--economic history, but history nonetheless--at the university level, this reasoning tells me that the entire revision project has some unacknowledged motivation of adapting the liturgy to suit present day political agendas. Some changes occurred due to differing perspectives on the Slavonic and Greek source documents, and some apparently were imposed on us because they reflect Fr David's idiosyncratic personal convictions.
Perhaps to make the Creed really inclusive it should be rewritten to state that Jesus came for unborn children as well. Talk about a group with no standing in the body politic!
Fr David's statement is absurd. Why is he appealing to the Declaration to support liturgical changes? If he is right, will our omission of "man" from the Creed suddenly delete coverture from American legal history or postdate the 19th Amendment back into the Bill of Rights? If the problem lies in our language in the past--did the King James translators write that "no man can serve two masters" because women had found a way to do so? This isn't a reasoned argument--it's one person's opinion.
The revision of the Creed (which must appear to the Orthodox as a popular Catholic pastime) was not the only such change, as everyone knows. But I would like to point out one that most people don't get to hear. In the prayers of preparation the priest and deacon formerly said: "Glory be to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will among men," but now this reads: "Glory to God in the highest, and to people on earth, peace and good will." [Apparently Neil Armstrong was on his own for a few days.] As an altar server I get to hear this irritant repeated every week.
Pardon my venting here. Each week when I hear the new translation I get angry all over again. I am grateful that this forum exists for such debate. No need to ask for pardon, John. You are right on the money! There was an agenda--no question. And it tends to anger a person when a worldy agenda is forced down their throat. Thank you for posting this. You are in my prayers. Recluse
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The revision of the Creed (which must appear to the Orthodox as a popular Catholic pastime) was not the only such change, as everyone knows. But I would like to point out one that most people don't get to hear. In the prayers of preparation the priest and deacon formerly said: "Glory be to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will among men," but now this reads: "Glory to God in the highest, and to people on earth, peace and good will." I did not know this! The more I hear, the more I grimace! 
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While we're at it, let's change that "all men are created equal" stuff too!  (They really did mean only MEN you know!) John, I took your post as sarcasm. However, I'll let you be the judge as to whether it should be sarcasm or dead serious. Separate from these issues, I would add a persoanl reflection. I have become convinced that the reason "men" was used in the English language to mean both "men" and "women" is that before the 20th century, "women" simply had no standing in the body politic of "mankind." They did not vote and were not expected to take part in public affairs, therefore, their status was "meaningless." In the context of the late 18th century, therefore, the statement "All men are created equal" means exactly what it says. I always thought that the 'writ of habeas corpus' applied to women from day one?  Monomakh Thou canst not be too sure... As the Founding Fathers were moving to declare independance, Abigail Adams wrote to her husband John, "In the new code of laws, remember the ladies and do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the husbands." John Adams replied, "I cannot but laugh. Depend upon it, we know better than to repeal our masculine systems." (from The Letters of John and Abigail Adams, Penguin Classics, 2003, also found in Alice S. Rossi, The Feminist Papers: From Adams to de Beauvoir, New York: Columbia University Press, 1973) As attitudes began to change, the courts have broadened the interpretation of many laws which previously did not pertain to women. Regarding the Lord's Prayer, this was asked and answered in a previous forum thread. Perhaps someone can do a search and post the link. Deacon John Montalvo, I find it interesting that you did not include more of what John Adams wrote in that letter. I'll take the liberty of including more of what John Adams wrote to see the real context: "Depend upon it, we know better than to repeal our masculine systems. Although they are in full force, you know they are little more than theory. We dare not exert our power in its full latitude. We are obliged to go fair, and softly, and in practice you know we are the subjects. We have only the names of masters, and rather than give up this, which would completely subject us to the despotism of the petticoat, I hope General Washington and all our brave heroes would fight." Sounds a little different than your soundbyte. He's saying that women have what men want. He thinks women are the dominant sex. He's also saying that men have to do many things to show that they are worthy of a woman's attention. Women dominate men in the whole realm of emotion and love, family and children, etc. There is a sense in which men only become women's equals with the aid of social and legal supports for male authority. And there is both historical and current scientific reason by the way to think that the destruction of these supports in recent decades is related to women's growing contempt of men, and men's declining interest in women and marriage. In other words, Adams was correct. Women's authority grows when male authority declines. But in the long run, when men lose their place of reputation in the family and the culture, women will suffer. Also it's interesting that you omitted an important sentence which Abigail Adams wrote later in her letter. Once again I'll take the liberty to include it: "In the new code of laws which I suppose it will be necessary for you to make, I desire you would remember the ladies, and be more generous and favorable to them than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of husbands. ..... Regard us then as beings by providence under your protection and in imitation for the Supreme Being, make use of that power only for our happiness." I don't see this as a statement of feminism do you? As is clear in the last sentence quoted (which is familiar to Ephesians 5 by the way, http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/ephesians/ephesians5.htm) she is proposing not the abolition of male authority but curbs on its abuse. But then maybe they didn't teach Alice Rossi that at Columbia University. Monomakh
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"In the new code of laws which I suppose it will be necessary for you to make, I desire you would remember the ladies, and be more generous and favorable to them than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of husbands. ..... Regard us then as beings by providence under your protection and in imitation for the Supreme Being, make use of that power only for our happiness."
Golly, even the women used Masonic language!!
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Finally, the Bishops went backwards in time to save a treasure. I am going to work very hard to pass that treasure on to succeeding generations. If people leave they will have to learn new music any way. Why not give this a try? Yes, prostopinije must be preserved. But what about the liturgical tradition? Is that not a treasure worth preserving? _____ Labra lege.When you go to Europe why don't you record all of the Orthodox chant you can? You could save it for future generations. Give it to the Met. Cantor Institute. I bet you could get a foundation to sponsor this project.
Last edited by Rufinus; 07/29/07 08:42 PM.
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Overall, I firmly disagree with what the moderator has written. I think that the Bishops have made the right decisions. I think that the Cantor Institute is right on track. Just curious. Where are you a cantor? What experience do you have cantoring? Monomakh
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Finally, the Bishops went backwards in time to save a treasure. I am going to work very hard to pass that treasure on to succeeding generations. If people leave they will have to learn new music any way. Why not give this a try? Yes, prostopinije must be preserved. But what about the liturgical tradition? Is that not a treasure worth preserving? _____ Labra lege.When you go to Europe why don't you record all of the Orthodox chant you can? You could save it for future generations. Give it to the Met. Cantor Institute. I bet you could get a foundation to sponsor this project. What a fantastic job of agreeing with my statement of agreement then completely avoiding my question re: preserving liturgical traditions. Do you come up with this stuff all on your own or do you have a team of writers? In an attempt to get this thread back on topic... I haven't had the opportunity to listen to the broadcast these past few weeks. Has anyone listened? Have there been any improvements? _____ Doamne Iisuse Hristoase, Fiul lui Dumnezeu, miluieşte-mă pe mine păcătosul.
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KO63AP: I listened on 7/22/07. Please see my post from 7/23/07 above. That was the last time that I'll listen. Thanks!
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What a fantastic job of agreeing with my statement of agreement then completely avoiding my question re: preserving liturgical traditions. Do you come up with this stuff all on your own or do you have a team of writers? I'm laughing at the "do you come up with this stuff?...." (I have a team of writers, by the way.) We had a difficult weekend with the new music and, well, I felt a little of the pain you and others described. I did not respond to the "liturgical traditions" because I had limited myself to the topic of music. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to delve into this subject so you should take no offense at the silence.
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LISTEN to the broadcast NOW!!!! 8/5/06 The sermon was directly in response to all the (negative) comments about the quality of the broadcast.
Quite enlightening!
Hopefully someone has recorded it!
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I finally had a chance to listen to the broadcast (first time in a month). After 10 minutes or so I was tempted to stop listening � I'm glad I persevered!
I foresee interesting times...
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Well - I have to say I also heard it this weekend . I was pleasantly surprised with some of the changes - the Mikes were better placed and we could hear the congregation singing - in harmony too in places .  This struck me as a great improvement. I still would like to hear a bit more consistency of pace - the petitions in the Litanies seem to be rushed until the last few words which are then dragged and slowed right down for a slow response from the congregation - this slow response is common I know - but here there is such a contrast. I gathered that the Deacon was not wearing a Mike this time - that was much better I have to say though surely the accented part of Matthew is not the end of the word - Ma TTHEW does not come over well. I will draw a veil over the Homily - I do not wish to start a slanging match. I will still say that the intrusive 'h's should be dealt with - and I repeat it does not take long to do this - it's a bad habit and can spread like wildfire - I have heard congregations doing it too - and this has always come about through hearing someone else doing it. Since we have so clearly been heard - please try and eradicate this . I wonder if the balance would be improved if the cantor stood back a few paces from his mike ? Try it one week - it's worth a shot. Now a heartfelt plea - please could " O joyful light " be speeded up a little - it's a laboured dirge at present .  Yes - I'll be tuning in again next week I think.
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Oh my ! I've been on a trawl through the MCI Site and found something very interesting [ well it is to me ] SviteTichij. [ metropolitancantorinstitute.org] now listen again to it from Parma
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Pardon my ignorance-how does one find the Parma Divine Liturgy on the internet?
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Pardon my ignorance-how does one find the Parma Divine Liturgy on the internet? Saturday evening's Vesperal Divine Liturgy is broadcast by WHKW 1200 AM [ whkwradio.com] at 5:00 PM Sunday evenings. At the moment they do not offer a 'listen again' feature so you can only listen to the broadcast when it goes out. _____ Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
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