www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Maybe God Just Doesn't Care....

I'm sorry if the title of this thread offends anyone. I hope you realize that some of us, perhaps weaker in faith than others, struggle with some real and very serious temptations to despair.

I continue to have some really strong and intense thoughts which accuse God of just not giving a good rip about mankind in general. The reason I say this is because it seems that taking care of Truth has not seemed to be a very high priority to Him in the last couple of centuries.

It has been said that the RDL is capable of destruction of my soul. The same accusation has been made, with considerable archival evidence from previous popes, of the Novus Ordo. In other words, in East and West now, we have liturgical rubrics which have the ability to destroy both faith and souls.

I understand that God must allow us freewill, but when we, the faithful who are not seminary trained, who ultimately must trust in our leaders, are allowed to be deceived and/or confused regarding the very issues of our faith, then why does God not move on behalf of us who are mere sheep?

What violation of free will would it have been to have struck dead those impious wretches who dared triffle with that which is eternal life to the tens of millions trusting in them and their decisions? I thought God promised to protect His Church against such heretical nonsense? Why would He allow modernism in to the Church, both East and West?

And now, I find myself again wondering the same thing about the new rubrics of the East, if they are truly as bad and as modernistic as some have claimed. Where is God in all this?

I can understand the bad things happening to our bodies and our physical selves as a test of our faith and an opportunity for growth in trust in Him. But this doesn't just involve me, it involves the whole Church and millions of people.

Well, you can do one of two things now.....scold me as being impious and borderline blasphemous, or try to help me make sense out of that which is unthinkable.

Brother Ed

Why did Jesus allow Judas Iscariot into his inner circle, knowing all the while that Judas would betray him? Why did he call Judas, but not choose him?

Jesus told the apostles that human nature will fail them, so they must rely on Him, on the Spirit, and on the Father. He specifically mentions all three in John 6:61-71. Many could not and left him, but Simon Peter realized that they must accept this path without understanding it as they had no other choice but to trust in the Lord.

Judas was trusted enough to be in charge of the money and to sit in the place of honor to the right of Jesus at the Last Supper. Jesus tells us, though, that "there are some of you who do not believe." John 6:64 He knew this, that he had a trader breaking bread with him. The other apostles did not know who it could be, which means Judas had done a mighty fine job of going through the motions of faith all while stealing from the poor box and plotting to betray the Messiah whose miracles he had witnessed and preached for years. What explanation could Jesus give us?

"For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." Mark 14:21

Jesus said that he will accomplish what he set out to do just the same, but that Judas will suffer the consequences for his choices. He also says it is not only Judas but all who follow in Judas' footsteps who will share this same fate, and he assures us that such people will come. "Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!" Matthew 18:7

�What I am saying does not refer to all of you. I know the ones I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture, �The one who eats my bread has turned against me." John 13:18 Jesus said that Judas, though called to be a disciple, was not chosen. This man who was given the power to cast out demons and who was sent out to preach the Word of God was not chosen. How is this?

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

It is by their own choice that they do not accept the Lord and that they suffer those consequences. But there is hope! "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one." John 18:9 Like the lost sheep or the prodigal son, those of us who believe will endure to the end and will not be lost. God does care for each and every one of us and will not allow even one of his faithful to be lost.

He never said it would be an easy road. Look how many turned away from him, following him only for a time? Then when things got rough or they had other priorities or they didn't understand, they went home. We have to be like St. Peter and accept the Lord's will, whatever it is even if we don't understand, if we are to be Christians. We have to be like St. Paul and take care to endure to the end, lest we lead others to Christ and do not gain the crown of victory ourselves. We have to be like so many of the saints who came before us who were willing to stand up for what they believed in, even when it meant losing their own lives. Temporal suffering, they realized, they could not control. Their faith, and the choice for Christ, was something no one else could control. And they endured in that faith without despair, entering into eternal glory!

We do not do this because God doesn't care. We do it because of how much God cares. He won't lose a single one of his chosen. He has chosen us who have faith in Him. We must only endure to the end. Otherwise, to whom could we go?

Why did Jesus allow Judas Iscariot into his inner circle, knowing all the while that Judas would betray him? Why did he call Judas, but not choose him?

Not choose him? Sounds very Calvinist to me. But in answer to this question, I believe it was that the plan of God for mankind's salvation, through the Crucifixion of Christ, would be accomplished.

This is different. Jesus promised that the Church would never be overcome by the gates of hell. Well, if the gates haven't overcome as of yet, there are sure a lot of us who are very confused out here. And this involves our personal salvation and the safety of our souls. That is the plan of God now...saving souls into the Kingdom of God. How then could He allow for such confusion which is contrary to the plan?

Jesus told the apostles that human nature will fail them, so they must rely on Him, on the Spirit, and on the Father.

Well, that is EXACTLY what I am saying. We are dumb sheep and we know we rely on Him. We look to the Church as the "pillar and ground" of Truth, rather than the ideas of fallible men. This is why I am so upset. To allow the Church to be corrupted is beyond imagination. To let the sheep run wild because we are being led not by shepherds, but by wolves. We don't see the Father. We don't hear the Son. But we have the Church as the voice of God in the world and that voice is not consistent with what has been taught in centuries past.

He specifically mentions all three in John 6:61-71. Many could not and left him, but Simon Peter realized that they must accept this path without understanding it as they had no other choice but to trust in the Lord.

Okay. Tell me how to do this when I am being asked to believe in things that previous popes have condemned as error. I only have the voice of the Church to guide me.

Judas was trusted enough to be in charge of the money and to sit in the place of honor to the right of Jesus at the Last Supper. Jesus tells us, though, that "there are some of you who do not believe." John 6:64 He knew this, that he had a trader breaking bread with him. The other apostles did not know who it could be, which means Judas had done a mighty fine job of going through the motions of faith all while stealing from the poor box and plotting to betray the Messiah whose miracles he had witnessed and preached for years. What explanation could Jesus give us?

"For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." Mark 14:21

Judas' betrayal was not the betrayal of one to whom the depositum fidei has been entrusted for the safety and salvation of the sheep under him. Judas' actions damned one soul -- his. Now we have faithful and trusting Catholics listening to the voices of shepherds who are teaching "gay rights" "sodomite marriage" "the Jews don't need Jesus to be saved" and who pray with pagans as they appeal to their demon "gods". Such actions affect millions more than just the person who is engaging in such ecummencial apostasy. Don't you see the difference?

Jesus said that he will accomplish what he set out to do just the same, but that Judas will suffer the consequences for his choices. He also says it is not only Judas but all who follow in Judas' footsteps who will share this same fate, and he assures us that such people will come. "Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!" Matthew 18:7

We are taught that our leaders are to be obeyed. We are charged to give them submission. Now the doors of modernism are opened in the Church (and in the Roman rite have been for over 40 years) and those of us who are raising questions are told we are not being good submissive Catholics. The inference is that to question our leaders is to question Christ. But Jesus never misled His followers. He may have taught them "hard sayings", but I doubt you would find Him praying with Buddists or kissing Korans, etc.

�What I am saying does not refer to all of you. I know the ones I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture, �The one who eats my bread has turned against me." John 13:18 Jesus said that Judas, though called to be a disciple, was not chosen. This man who was given the power to cast out demons and who was sent out to preach the Word of God was not chosen. How is this?

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

It is by their own choice that they do not accept the Lord and that they suffer those consequences. But there is hope! "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one." John 18:9 Like the lost sheep or the prodigal son, those of us who believe will endure to the end and will not be lost. God does care for each and every one of us and will not allow even one of his faithful to be lost.

He never said it would be an easy road. Look how many turned away from him, following him only for a time? Then when things got rough or they had other priorities or they didn't understand, they went home. We have to be like St. Peter and accept the Lord's will, whatever it is even if we don't understand, if we are to be Christians. We have to be like St. Paul and take care to endure to the end, lest we lead others to Christ and do not gain the crown of victory ourselves. We have to be like so many of the saints who came before us who were willing to stand up for what they believed in, even when it meant losing their own lives. Temporal suffering, they realized, they could not control. Their faith, and the choice for Christ, was something no one else could control. And they endured in that faith without despair, entering into eternal glory!

We do not do this because God doesn't care. We do it because of how much God cares. He won't lose a single one of his chosen. He has chosen us who have faith in Him. We must only endure to the end. Otherwise, to whom could we go?

You miss the point. It is not an issue of trusting Him. It is an issue of understanding exactly what He is saying. Either He speaks through the Church or He doesn't. If He does, then the most serious danger to our faith is false statements from those who are our "shepherds". If he doesn't, then all we can rely upon is private interpretation and private visions, if we can get to a level of sanctity high enough to receive such.

I am trying to trust Him. But because of the serious disconnect between the teachings of the Church in this era and the teachings prior to Vatican II, I am having a hard time understanding exactly WHAT I should believe!

Brother Ed

Brother Ed,

It certainly would seem reasonable to me that God should provide us with a Church hierarchy that teaches us "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth," both in word and deed. We should be able to turn to our spiritual fathers and feel certain that what we're getting from them is only the purest spiritual food--after all, didn't Our Lord promise His Apostles "who hears you hears Me, who rejects you rejects Me ..." etc.?

I'm sure there are many of us who have wrestled with this issue for a long time. Only gradually have I gained what I feel is insight into the problem. One example I can give occurred when I attended a day of recollection at an RC parish and was *shocked* by some of the things the guest priest was saying (more or less to the effect that the Church's having a "male, celibate clergy"--a phrase he kept repeating--was the root of all its problems). I was tempted to walk out, but didn't. Afterwards, I spoke with several people, none of whom remembered the priest's mentioning that particular item! Furthermore, every one of them mentioned something the priest had said that they found edifying--things I hadn't even noticed.

My tentative conclusion in all this is that God uses people and situations in ways that we cannot fathom. He is indeed guiding His Church, but in ways that are very mysterious. Someone once said that "God writes straight with crooked lines", and I have to go with that.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Brother Ed:

Could you please identify which "liturgical rubrics ... have the ability to destroy both faith and souls,"?

Rubrics are the directions (usually in red, hence the name) found printed in liturgical books which establish how the services are celebrated. I'm having a hard time envisioning which rubric(s) is/are causing you spiritual harm.

May I suggest that you discuss this with your pastor or spiritual director.

I think Ed means not the rubrics or directions themselves, but the wording of the services. AFAIK, it's the latter that is the source of the problem. However, Ed certainly can clarify for himself.

Timothy

I'm sorry. I guess I misunderstood the term "rubrics". I am speaking about the modernism which has been incorporated in our Divine Liturgy. The Roman Church is already a MESS from the hijacking and trashing of their Liturgy by certain folks within the VII hierarchy.

Now I have to listen to the Creed being changed, the subtle changes in the wording of the Liturgy, and I have heard some here state that such changes are a danger to my very soul. If that is true -- a big if -- then why would God allow changes which endanger the souls of the sheep for whom He died?

I have been reading some Traditionalist Latin literature online, which included a side by side comparision of the wretched Novus Ordo "liturgy" and the quite beautiful wording of the Traditional Latin Mass. Don't these people in the Roman Church "get it?" Especially those old enough to remember the TLM.

I am going to visit a TLM next week. We have had one in this area for a couple of years. I just need to hear what it sounds like, see the wording, and most of all, think and pray.

If this makes me a troublemaker, so be it.

I just hope some here might realize that I am having some serious distress here, and I am not trying to be combative, rude, or a troublemaker.

Brother Ed

I wish I knew what to say. I am undecided myself on some of these issues. How do we understand and react to some of these things? I honestly don't know.

I've been through some very hard things in the last 14 years of my life. I won't go into all of them--it would make this post into a novel by Tolstoy. But briefly, I've had two brain tumors and brain surgeries, the first one causing a spinal tumor that left me paralyzed from the waist down. I was 33 a the time. So I had brain surgery and spinal surgery within three days of each other. But the brain tumor (incredibly rare by the way--five out of a million people get what I had) caused osteoporosis. That meant I broke my back at least once per year since Dec 1933.

In 1999 I had a second brain tumor, this one even more incredibly rare. I was told by my specialist that what I had simply could not exist, it was all in my head and I just needed to take some valium and relax. Had I listened to him, I would have been dead within months. That's when I started going to Johns Hopkins Hospital. The second brain surgery did not work, so I had to have radiation. All this with an 18 month old son. And I kept breaking my spine at least once per year. Then my entire left rib cage broke, twice within a few months.

Finally it all come to a head in 2005 when I was told I had ruptured a disk in my back and it was causing spinal cord compression and if I didn't have surgery within the next two weeks, I would be in a wheel chair wearing adult diapers for the rest of my life. I was 45.The weird part was that I didn't have any symptoms at all! But when the head of Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins tells you you need surgery, you believe him. So I walked into the hospital--only to wake up out of anesthesia paralyzed. Exactly what the surgery was supposed to prevent. Something went wrong in surgery and my spinal cord was injured. You want to talk about scared? Confused? There was a good reason they kept me sedated. I wound up having four spinal surgeries in less than one month. I spent two months in the hospital, missing Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years. I was 200 miles away from home, alone. My wife had to work and my son had to be in school. But I finally made it home, in a wheelchair. Now I can walk with the aid of a cane, but it's still hard.

And I had to have surgery again this past May. There were more spinal problems and I couldn't move my left leg much, if at all. That surgery helped, but my feet are still completely numb. My legs below my knees are pins and needles and I have tons of spasms. Either I take the morphine and anti-spasm meds and fall asleep, or I do without and am in pain. And believe it or not, that IS the short version! I left bunches of things out to make it shorter. Like the night my room mate in the hospital died.

Did I have doubts as to how much God loves me? To be frank, yes. I really felt like Job. How much is one person supposed to handle before breaking? I don't know. It's still going on. If I don't get considerably better, I may have to go on disability.

Do I still have doubts? Yes. I'm not sure. It's the old "when bad things happen to good people" thing. But I know I still love my church. I know I still love the Divine Liturgy. I know I still lose myself when singing some of the prayers. But I can't get to Divine Liturgy every week. Somedays I can barely walk.

I don't have answers for you. I didn't get into all I wrote above to get a pity party. There are people who would change places with me in a New York minute. I've met them in rehab. People paralyzed from the neck down. I try to keep them in mind when it gets tough at 3am and my legs are spasming again.

I hope you find the answers to your questions. Please let me know if you do. I'm holding on. I just keep singing "Svate Boze" and the "Otce Nas" in slavonic. It helps. I still believe Jesus is there, looking after me.

Tim

Father Deacon Richard,
This is an interesting and edifying example you gave as I recently heard of much the same situation. A priest made some very poor decisions and preached some very poor theology, to the point of calling into question his ability to properly guide those who were in his care. I was asked, "How can he give me spiritual nourishment when he has nothing more than infant formula? How can he guide me to something he doesn't have?"

While these other people in your example did not seem affected by this priest's put-down to a venerable tradition of his Church (not to mention the implied heresy), you did. So what of that one or two or fifteen who are ready for solid foods, ready for steak, ready for fasting, but who are unable to receive the nourishment they need from priests who haven't passed the infant stage of spiritual development themselves? What are they to do when the priests tell them such faith is not necessary, or even deride their attempts to grow?

Unlike brother Ed, it does not rattle my faith in God to hear stories like this. Instead, it makes me angry at the many Judases in our midst who will go through the motions preaching and teaching faith in Christ all while having none of their own.

When seeking guidance, another told him, "I've seen priests like that. Don't spend your time worrying about him. I bet he won't even be a priest in 5 years." That's the comfort! That he'll leave the priesthood, or maybe the faith, in due time. His advice was, "Just show up on Sundays, receive the Eucharist, and pray for him." Is that all we can expect from the Church? Go to Sunday Mass, cover your kids' ears during the homily, don't trust the seal of confession much less any advice given within it if it is even offered, and then find your own path the rest of the time?

We know what God's will is. We know it is to have holy elders who can lead people to Christ through the Church He established and the faith He gave us. So what is a person to do when confronted when a willful rejection of this order comes from those in positions of authority? What is a proper response? I don't think there is an answer, much less a good one. How does one deal with that which should never be dealt with?

I can understand where brother Ed is coming from because my relative was facing the same choices. I don't have advice except to say that we know from the Book of Job that the answer isn't to despair in our faith in God. It is always man who fails, and we must take care that in our revulsion for their failures to live their faith, we don't join them by denying our own. And we can always hope that these people who are stumbling blocks, like Judas, will repent. And maybe even like the Samaritan woman, will have enough remaining time to follow Christ in spirit and truth. Only then could they lead others to Him.

It is disheartening to hear of so many poor leaders leading people to secularism and heresy. But we can take hope in Christ who says he will not lose one of his chosen, even when such obstacles arise, as he assures us they will.

That's what Christ said.
"Many are called but few are chosen." Matthew 22:14
�What I am saying does not refer to all of you [the apostles who had been called]. I know the ones I have chosen." John 13:18
"Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one." John 18:9

You believe it was God's plan that Judas would fail and be damned? That isn't my understanding of God, the one who wills all to be saved. Instead, we know that many do not cooperate with his will and freely choose to do evil. God assures us that these stumbling blocks will not allow us to be lost. How much more does he know us and love us than a sparrow? He knows the number of hairs on our head!

I don't know how. I really don't. Whenever I am feeling despair, as I have had many opportunities to cry out to God asking, "Why?" in my life, I cling only to the knowledge that I have faith in the Lord and so I have no where else to turn but to Him. I do not need to understand, but must only keep my faith. I find the Psalms to be a great comfort and source of strength.

But is the Church, the Body of Christ, corrupted by the sins of its leaders? I would say it is wounded, but not corrupted.


It is easy to accept the will of God. It is much harder to live it. Where is one to go if one can't expect to find Christ preached in the temples? It makes me be a little more sympathetic to the SSPX argument of going where they perceive the Body of Christ to be. How much harder must it be for an Eastern Catholic who likely has few if any other places to go compared to the average Latin Catholic? And yet, something holds me back from answering further. Because I, a sinner, do not have the answer does not mean it does not exist. I know that it does, even if I never learn it. I will pray that you find it.

No? Jesus said otherwise.

Matthew 10:1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: ...
4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
8 "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.

13 "If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
14 "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

19"But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20"For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."

And how was that? How was it that all those he had preached, taught, and baptized were able to come to Christ through him? Why were none of them lost? I have a theory. Not being a Biblical scholar, it isn't worth the "paper" it is written on. But I theorize that it was several things.
1) Judas had the outward appearances of faith. He was not openly preaching heresy and did nothing to raise the suspicions even of those closest to Him. The reason Christ knew was because he knew Judas' heart, which the others were unable to do. So the combination of his pious actions and truthful preaching was able to lead others to Christ while he hid from view his own failure to accept Him. I believe many in the Church today do the same.

2) There was a strong enough presence of those who knew what was right to counter him, to the point Peter felt it perfectly acceptable to cut off another guys' ear as a sign of the fight he was willing to wage for Christ.

Today, we have quite the opposite in many places. When more people are against Christ's teachings than for them, and when the leaders make no pretense to live or preach holiness, it makes some wonder if they, too, should despair like Peter did the night he felt all was lost and denied the Lord three times.

Was Jochebed obedient to the Pharaoh when she put her son in a basket to hide him from slaughter? Were the wise men obedient to Herod when he told them to return to him with news of where the child lay?

Mary didn't understand how she could get pregnant, but she consented to whatever was the will of the Lord. Joseph didn't understand how she was pregnant, but he consented to whatever was the will of the Lord. Jesus, the model of submission, gave us the perfect example in the Garden of Gethsemane when he said, "Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

We are to submit ourselves to the will of the Lord and give proper respect to those authority figures above us. This is an important distinction which Christ himself makes: "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Matthew 22:21 To render unto God that which is His, we can not sin in the name of submission to men. (As an aside, I am not commenting on if the RDL causes one to sin as I feel it is an inappropriate venue to offer such commentary and I am an inappropriate person to give such advice.)

I don't believe I do. It appears to me that your train of logic is that some people in the church sin in the name of the church. That means the church is corrupted and sinful. That means we have no way to reach God. That means God doesn't even care.

Losing faith in one's leader is far different from losing faith in God. Can you point to even one Catholic alive today who is preaching the Good News and living a holy life? If so, go there. Get advice. Find a source of strength. Don't allow yourself to wallow in the sins of others. Don't allow those sins to reflect on God. And surely don't allow their lack of worship in spirit and truth to lead you away from God into despair. That is my point.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Brother Ed, He does indeed love you dearly, as you are a child of His no matter what.

He also gives us free will because He loves mankind. And of course these are strong and intense feelings because they are ultimately about the Eucharist, the heart of the deifying Mysteries of our Lord.

While the Church is certainly of Divine origin, she is also populated by men who are not perfect. Sometimes indeed decisions are made that do not seem "right" or shake one's faith.

In recent Church history we can look at the Pauline Mass, the Novus Ordo or whatever you want to call it. Many did not like it but went along. Many left for the Traditional Latin Mass. Many stopped going entirely. Of these, the only response I don't agree is a "right" one is the last because it is one of despair. The Church has clearly said either of the first two are acceptable, since both the 1962 and the Pauline Mass are certainly blessed by and used by the Church for those who wish to avail themselves.

And we now see the Latin Church correcting certain abuses and initiatives in the Liturgy. Was the Church "wrong"? No, and Certainly the Mass isn't "wrong". Rather it was those men who are less than perfect who implemented misguided interpretations or were given the opportunity to experiment, which failed. Cardinal Newman spoke to issues of the development of doctrine quite well in his time which also has much wisdom in our time.

In the current situation you also have free will. If the changes do indeed disturb you deeply, you are in no way obliged or forced to stay. It is really that simple. You have many choices, including going to another Eastern Catholic Church, staying in your parish, or becoming Orthodox. It must be discerned over time, and not with a hasty or anger-driven action.

Again the only option I feel is "wrong" objectively is that driven out of despair rather than a positive movement towards healing of the spiritual turmoil. If you are sincerely trying to regain intimate communion with our Lord through a Church that heals you and draws you back to the Mysteries rather than gives you sorrow and spiritual travail - that is a good thing. The Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic and plenty big enough for you to find your place and home.

Brother Ed,

I am not going to scold you. You're being honest and respectful in the way you express your doubt. Here is my unworthy response.

The Church is being protected from heresy. There are parts and pockets of the Church where the Gospel is being preserved and handed down and shared in its entirety. I would suggest looking at the conservative parts of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

This is the work of the Holy Spirit and human co-operation with grace. Yesterday's Gospel portion reminded us of that: the apostles brought Christ a need (a hungry crowd), Christ said bring me what you have, the apostles did bring Christ what they had (five loaves and two fish), and even though it was totally inadequate Christ transformed it into bounty that met and surpassed the need (feeding the crowd with much left over). That's how He works in all aspects of life, if we let Him. It is rarely miraculous in the physical sense; instead, His bounty operates through human hearts and by seeming coincidence.

As for suffering, it is now part of life since Adam's sin. Yet, Christ makes it redemptive, again if we let Him.

I know: all that is easier said than done, but there it is.

Be well.

-- John

This is a wonderful post. We should let ourselves be led by the Holy Spirit. We are on a journey and God is our guide. As a cradle Roman Catholic, I was astounded to discover that there was an Eastern Catholic Church. I fell in love with the Divine Liturgy and everything Eastern! The Ruthenian Catholic Church became a rich source of spiritual food for me and enabled me to go deeper. Then, like Br Ed, I saw some of the same errors that plagued Rome beginning to occur in the Ruthenian Church. I was scandalized by the RDL and could no longer find peace when I worshipped in my Church!

For two weeks I have been attending the Divine Liturgy in the Orthodox Church. My peace has returned. The Roman Catholic Church led me to the Eastern Catholic Church, and the Eastern Catholic Church Church led me to the Orthodox Church. It is a journey, and despair should not be a part of that journey. I am confident that I will live out the rest of my life in the Holy Orthodox Church, but the journey will not end. The Lord will continue to guide and instruct me and my family. Deification is a never ending process--it continues for eternity.

Blessing to you Br Ed as you continue your journey towards eternity!

R

Recluse,

You sound exactly like me. I am a cradle Roman Catholic who found the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church and fell in love. In my case this was initially through my Russian language and cultural studies. Since then, I have become more and more Orthodox in orientation, in faith, and in practice, and now am preparing for reception into the Orthodox Church.

In Christ,

Timothy

Brother Ed:

I have read your posts, have read your pain, and have pondered all the replies that have been made to you. Let's take a look at some of the gold nuggets I've been able to pan out of the many posted replies.




In the Desert Fathers, a story is told of the Holy Anthony, the Father of monasticism. He was praying and he asked God why the righteous are poor and the evil people so wealthy, and why do the poor starve and the rich have so much and don't share, and why do so many die young when they are good people and why do so many evil people live to the far side of old age. And God answere dhis prayer adn said, "These are the judgments of God and they are not for you to know."

It has been said that the Russian Orthodox Church was purified as if by fire by the persecution of the early 20th century. God does not say, as our brother, Wondering, says "it would be an easy road." He has said that we must persevere. He has said that no servant is greater than his Master; no disciple greater than his Teacher. If we would follow Christ, we MUST expect persecution, humiliation, loss of family and friends--we must be willing to be stripped of all that we have that attaches us to this world.

The Liturgy is a door. It opens us into eternity. We are not to be attached to the door--that is, to the means--but to the reality that it opens us to and to us. We can become attached to words, to gestures, to incense, to whatever, but it is Christ that we are called to follow and to enter communion with.

Yes, your Church is suffering because of the sudden, rapid changes in the identity of your community. That which your ancestors fought and died to preserve SEEMS to be thrown out. But the reality is that you still have the opportunity to commune with the Mysteries of Christ. On the other hand, you are called to persevere, not to cast aspersions on the leadership (Christ will judge those called to the priesthood and their judgment is not for us to do. They have greater responsibility and their judgment will be that much more exacting. Pray for them; we are all in need of His Mercy whatever our station in life.) If form is very important and this causes you a scandal, then you should QUIETLY move on as has been suggested. If you cause a scandal, your sin is greater than the ones who have provided you with what you consider the excuse to vent. Remember that you are not responsible for the actions of the hierarchy or your pastor, but you are responsible for how you react to the events you find yourself in and the people who come into your life.

In Christ,

BOB

PS: My apologies for the length of this post.