www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West RE: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Well you know how them Westerners are just can't keep on track. Wander all over the map. Especially the Irish. Them people just won't stay home!!

But if I'm not mistaken Eastern Europe tracks geneologies too don't they? I mean its not an alien enterprise is it?

M.

I didn't say Red Hugh was an O'Neil. I said the O'Neils like to use the name to honor his memory - as indeed they do.

Your relatives are welcome to read my comments.

Actually, by the way, the Irish had a distinct aversion to leaving Ireland until the great hunger hit - from then until quite recently emigration was an established pattern of behavior. We uppity Irish have a habit of eating regular meals.

By the way, I have no idea what all this has to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy. But I remember an amusing conversation in Toronto in 1989. At the table in a good restaurant were Bishop Isidore of Toronto (Greek-Catholic), Bishop Vsevolod of Scopelos (Ukrainian Orthodox), Msgr Salvatore Scribano (Pontifical Council for Christian Unity), and your humble servant. Scribano remarked to both bishops: "I understand why the Greek-Catholics do not wish to join the Moscow Patriarchate; they believe that this places their eternal salvation in serious jeopardy. But why, Bishop Vsevolod, do the Ukrainian Orthodox not wish to join the Moscow Patriarchate?"

Both bishops burst out into uncontrollable laughter. Bishop Vsevolod recovered, and put this question to Scribano: "tell me, dear Monsignor, have you ever tried to convince all the Irish Catholics to become High-Church Episcopalians?"

That set off another round of laughing hysterics - I strongly suspect that Msgr. Scribano never really got the point, because it doesn't fit his stereotypes.

Fr. Serge

This whole post is a treat!!

And also I NEVER meant to imply that the travel-abouts didn't have EVERY intention of goin' home.

Sorry I got to story telling. Sometimes, they just fall out.

M.

To shorthand it, since I don't have the book with me at school, my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather was Stephen Heard, a son of the Earl of Tyrone. He came to America, fought for the Americans during the Civil War, and settled in Georgia. The county in which I live (Heard) is named for him, and my grandmother's maiden name is Heard. We can, rather easily, trace our descent to Stephen Heard, and because he was so prominent in the state (even becoming "governor," for lack of better term, of the Colony of Georgia), and since he came from a royal lineage, there are many books about him. His ancestry can be traced directly back to Niall of the Nine Hostages in the 4th century A.D. through his mother, Margaret McDonald. How? I'm not sure, but apparently the records exist and because he was royal/higher up on the social chain, they keep stuff like that!

One could even go further past Niall and you reach all the way back, pre-Christ, into Irish lore where, apparently, my family descended from the gods themselves (as I'm sure most Irish people allegedly do!).

Alexis

Wait, maybe Stephen Heard himself was Earl of Tyrone. I can't really remember anymore.

Alexis

[quote=ElijahmariaBut if I'm not mistaken Eastern Europe tracks geneologies too don't they? I mean its not an alien enterprise is it?M.[/quote]
Seems to me that most of the geneology research on our ancestors is being done for us by the LDS. At least I was able to get to what was once the "village" where my grandparents were listed on ellis Island records as coming from, now swallowed up inside the city limits of Presov. But there was a great tavern there with the name on it of "Stara Dubrava" with a big, big beergarden. Too bad it was winter. The beer was cheap however (70 cents a half liter)

The Antiochians offer 2 forms of Western Rite liturgy. I've seen both a couple of times while living in CO. Both are beautiful though I prefer the liturgy of St. Gregory. Both are very reverant. I wish my own RC church would take some hints from them...

Well, why not have Western Uniates? What is good for the goose is good for the gander. As for complaining about what the other side does.. that is fun too!!!

That is such a funny comparison I am laughing hard.
It's great to add a sense of humour to these discussions.
:-)

Well I love the Synod of Milan Western Rite. The Synod of Milan does not use organs (except perhaps to replace Ison/drone) and is far more ancient than these wanna-be anglicans of the Antiochian Church. If the Antiochian WR's are going to use Giotto's paintings and allow naturalistic neo-pagan realism into their Icons eventually the church will be just like the RC. Still In general I like the western rite but I think they need to allow the Mozarabic and Gallican liturgies to be used in the USA.
They are for me too much of an modern Anglo Saxon liturgy and culture.
Also they should abandon the Anglican traditions which are not truly from the ancient english church. I see some WR Antiochian Churches that look EXTREMELY Gothic. When I think Gothic I distinctly think of heterodox and heresy as this is the time period when the Roman Catholics really began to come up with their modern traditions and abandon the Eastern and ancient Western ones. So for me they are sort of a confused church that doesnt know what it's doing yet, but might learn eventually what is wisest.

In general I dont like the Western Churches adopting practices which developed in the west after the year 1200. I think it is a mistake and will only lead to them turning into the Roman Catholic Church of today.

I am looking for the type of chant that Ensemble Organum/Marcel Peres use. A sort of Chant that is much closer to the Corsican/Ancient Roman/Eastern Chant yet definitely western. I think when the Western Orthodox are using the solesme interpretation chant you can tell that something is wrong because solesme is not historically accurate its really made up from some 19th century anti-corsican french RC monk's imaginations.

There is not in fact only one Western Rite you see. We run into the situation of possibly having nationalized Western Orthodox Churches if we are not careful. This was historically how it was ..so..its not really wrong, but probably not desirable by that many people in North America.

I am not to sure were to begin, but truly as a member of AWRV in a fully canonical and authentic Orthodox Church (unlike the Milan Synod) I find your knowledge of Liturgical and Church history truly astounding. We the AWRV are not wanna be Anglicans or RC's or Old Catholics, but are truly part of the Western Orthodox Tradition. You cannot prove your claims, rather you simply insult. If you actually have took the time to study how the modern Western Rite liturgy deveolped you might see we are not Anglicans. Both the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, ROCOR, MP, and most recently the Patriarchate of Serbia all regocnize that the Western Rite as used in the AWRV and ROCOR, are the authentic organic Western Orthodox Liturgical Tradition. Just were did you get your facts "Fr. Aidan" Derek Keller, the vagantes from Texas?

one man's organic development is another man's ...

"the modern Western Rite liturgy developed"

It is true that Fr. Aidan Keller is a not trustworthy. He was probably defrocked for a reason (am I correct? or is he still active). He has made many serious errors his knowlege of liturgics is frequently mistaken. Do not let one bad apple spoil the bunch.

The person I received some of my knowledge from is Fr Raphael Matthew Johnson:
http://www.rusjournal.com/about.html

I am sorry I called AWRV wannabe Anglicans. I should have used kinder words..... it is odd though that I felt like I was in an anglican church once to a certain degree...please dont take me too seriously.
These really are probably more cultural tastes, nothing heretical yet.

For now let me simply say that some of vestments, chant and church architecture are not authentic as what we would have seen in a Western Church in Italy before 1000 A.D.

if you want evidence of that I will give it.

Has there been any attempt within the Antiochian Church to create a very Latin-Catholic looking parish with a liturgy very close to the Tridentine Mass in order to attract former Catholics?

I have heard from user's comments that even the Liturgy of St. Gregory is celebrated with an English flavour and in the vernacular even though I have not attended this rite.

I suppose that if the Western Orthodox came to my country they would celebrate the rite with a Latin flavour.

Back in the forties and fifties, there was a Western Orthodox parish (depending on Bishop Bohdan of the Ecumenical Patriarchate) somewhere in the American South-west, with the startling dedication of "Our Lady of Guadalupe" - it was a Hispanic parish, obviously, and services were mostly in Spanish.

Fr. Serge

One mans PhD and Vagante "Priest" is another mans crazy loon...
Xristoforos

Let me first apologize if I seemed harsh myself. I'm working two full times jobs right now, so as you can imagine, ones patience can be rather thin. I did read the article by "Fr" Johnson, and wow, there twenty minutes of my life I can never get back! Let me first point out that I know of Dr. (Fr) M. Raphael Johnson from other publications, most notably the Barnes Review. The Barnes Review was at one time a credible periodical covering the parts of history that tend to be overlooked or simply ignored, yet today, is mainly a vehicle for Holocaust Revisionism. This alone make Dr. Johnson's academic honesty slightly tarnished. Also, on the introduction to his website, he claims that "His spiritual father is Archbishop +JOHN of New Jersey for the Synod of Milan, the world's leading scholar in the ancient and early medieval liturgies of the west." Now this is simply not true, no one in the world would consider this man an expert (let alone the worlds expert" on Medieval liturgy!!!

I will take the time over the next couple of days to give a more detailed response to the article you cited, but let me make just a few observations. One can easily see that Johnson acts more like a hate filled anti-Latin polemics than a sound liturgical scholar. He apparently has no understanding of the "Tridentine" Mass, Pius V, the Council of Trent, Roman Catholicism or early Western Orthodox Liturgy. He makes such frankly asinine claims that "the liturgy of Trent has little relation tot he ancient western liturgies" or that the using the name Sarum rite "is a nickname and highly informal. Any amateur historian or scholar can easily read and see that Pope Pius V and the Council of Trent didn't suppress any authentic liturgical traditions. They certainly didn't create the "Tridentine Mass" as Johnson claims, but simply codified it and made it more uniform. The Medieval West in many instances had a high degree of liturgical chaos, leading to hundreds of various local customs and practices that spread from parish to diocese, and some form of stream lining was necessary.

I do not know how any one could take what Johnson says seriously. Constantly referring to Latins and "Papalists" he seems more like a closet Ian Paisley protestant than a Western Orthodox Christian (he does claims to be Irish, perhaps he is related to Paisley:) His apparent hatred for all things Latin or Papal has lead him to believe that Western Orthodoxy has nothing in common or even look like modern Catholicism and Anglicanism To be honest, reading this article is like talking to those conspiracy nuts who see a Jew or Mason behind every corner, lookout for Bigfoot, or believe we never landed on the moon! With people like this, part of the simply would rather not waste my brain cells to help them see the errors of their own self delusional paranoia.

He fails to address why every major liturgical scholar admits that the 1570 Missal is nearly identical to the Mass of ancient Rome, and that up until V2 the Roman Mass really hasn't changed. The 1870 response for the Holy Synod of Russia affirms this, and called for little change in the liturgy to conform to Orthodox belief, mainly because it already was Orthodox!.

As to a couple of things you mentioned, it is true that certain forms of vestments and chant have changed, and would not be 100% identical to what we would find in 1100 Italy. The same is true of the Byzantine Liturgy, what is seen today is not 100% identical to 1100 of 1453 Byzantium! Organic development does not mean that the liturgy of today is to be exactly the same as if was one thousand years ago!

-Adrien

Also, for a much more accurate view of the Orthodox Western Rite, please follow the link below to the essay Lux Occidentalis by Fr. John Connely. Fr. Connely is the rector of St. Mark's Orthodox Church in Denver Colorado. I know Fr. John personally, and he is a truly a godly pastor and a brilliant liturgical scholar.


http://westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis