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This is a pull to find out what is the rite of chouce in this forum.
Last edited by fatman2021; 07/28/07 01:32 AM.
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Sorry not to vote, but the question is badly formed. The pre-Nikonian services maintained by the Old-Ritualists are unlikely to be exactly the same as the services as they arrived from Constantinople in 988.
Fr. Serge
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I have to agree with Fr. Serge as a former graduate student in eastern European history. There was great diversity throughout the territories of the Eastern Slavs.
I do not think this is an appropriate topic since the Old Rite is not the Liturgy of 988.
Also what is this "time of Russian conversion to Orthodoxy"?
The lands of what is present day Russia took time to convert to Orthodoxy. These areas remained pagan longer than present day Ukraine.
Perhaps you were thinking of 988 and the official conversion of the head of the state of Kyivan Rus' St. Volodymyr in 988 in Kyiv.
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Kyivan Rus and modern Russia are clearly not the same thing. But it is true that the Churches of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus all descend from the events of 988. To take only one example, the Monastery of the Caves provided bishops for all three places from time to time.
Fr. Serge
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Also, I think the issue of which one "prefers" can't be separated from the issue of the community that uses it, positions taken and traditions developed. I like having priests, for example! And while I abhor the strife attending the Nikonian reforms, and have sympathy and admiration for the Old Ritualists, I also recognize that there have also been been saints following the Nikonian liturgy - some of whom directed their faithful against Old Believer customs.
When in Oregon, do as the Oregonians do! But why go to parish of the OCA or the Russian Church Abroad and spend any energy criticizing it from an Old Ritualist point of view - especially if one is not an Old Ritualist?
Jeff
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Here is the contact information for the Old Rite Community in Erie, PA under the ROCOR if anyone is interested: Pimen Simon, Protopriest 247 E FRONT ST ERIE, PA 16507-1560 Telephone: 814/454-8618 (H); 814/459-8515 (Church) Fax: 814/459-8515 Email: ssimon@mercyhurst.edu Conversation: E Correspondence: E Services: E; SLavonic Nativity of Our Lord Russian Orthodox Church251 E FRONT ST ERIE, PA 16507-1560 Telephone: 814/459-8515; 814/459-8515 Fax: 814/459-8515 Email: COTN@velocity.net Services: E/S Diocese: Erie & Old Rite Directions: I-79 N to Bayfront Hwy to end @ Holland & Front; church cupolas visible from there. Service Schedule: Weekly services. Bp. Daniel (Alexandrow) Protopriest Pimen Simon Priest Theodore Jurewicz Dcn. Mitrophan Simon Dcn. Philip Popoff Dcn. Hierotheos Popoff Dcn. Stefan G. Klimczak http://www.directory.sjkp.org/parishes.php?id=2606There is also an article about a recent visit to Moscow: Moscow: July 19, 2007 US Old-Rite Clergy Give High Rating To Their Trip to RussiaThe delegation of Old Rite clergy in canonical communion with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, completed a week-long visit to Russia, during which they visited the Moscow Kremlin, the Cathedral of of Christ the Savior, the Holy Trinity-St. Sergius Lavra, and Old-Rite parishes of the Russian capital. "We were impressed by the amazing rebirth of Orthodox life, obvious in all the places where we had occasion to be. This moved us, on our return to Erie, to convince Bishop Daniel that his fears about continuing communist ideology oppressing the Church were unfounded," as Archpriest Pimen Simon, pastor of the church of the Nativity of Christ in Erie, PA, a member of the delegation, told Interfax on Thursday. Previously, certain opponents of the reconciliation of the Russian Orthodox Church in the fatherland and abroad had tried to incline Bishop Daniel of Erie, who tends the Old-Rite flock of ROCOR, to head a schism in the Church Abroad and become the leader of a so-called "Temporary Supreme Church Authority of the Russian Church Abroad." Vladyka Daniel himself, however, in June had refuted rumors of his intention to be part of a church schism. As Fr Pimen informed the agency, after returning from Russia, the members of the delegation told Vladyka Daniel "how much he and Metropolitan Laurus were esteemed by the Old Rite flock there." They also described their Moscow stay in detail, with visits to shrines and contacts with the hierarchy and Old-Rite clergy. "All these details put Bishop Daniel's mind to rest, and he assured us that he trusts our impressions and is extremely glad to learn that the Church in Russia is experiencing such a wonderful rebirth, and that it respects the Church Abroad," said the priest. The American Old-Rite delegation, consisting of Fr Pimen, Abbot John (Bersins) and Deacon Hierotheus Popov, concelebrated in churches in and around Moscow with the Secretary of the Commission for the Affairs of Old-Rite Parishes and for Cooperation with the Old Believers, Priest Ioann Miroliubov, with Abbot Irinarch (Denisov) the pastor of the Old-Rite Church of the Archangel Michael in the village of Mikhailovskaya Sloboda, and with the pastor of St Nicholas church in Pokrovskoye, Archimandrite Dionisy (Shishigin). "All these services brought immense joy to all who were present. We were especially gratified by the fact that in each church, Metropolitan Laurus and Bishop Daniel were commemorated, and Many Years for them was sung," noted Fr Pimen. The delegation members and the Vice President of the Department of External Church Affairs of the Moscow Patriarchate, Bishop Mark of Egoriev, also discussed the details of how Russian Orthodox Church representatives are to take part in the conference on "Orthodoxy in the XXI Century," which is to take place in Erie in June of 2008. As posted on pravoslavie.ru for July 19, 2007. Translation by Protopriest John Shaw http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2007/7enobpilgrimage.html
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Orest is certainly right, and a perusal of extant 16th and 17th century Old Rite sluzhebnyky will indeed give some variations on usage. One will see some differences between the various priestly Old Rite communities today. While these are fairly minor, they are certainly present. Does that make one better or more pure than the others? I don't think so.
I myself prefer the Old Rite, but would not by any means consider the use of the Nikonian-reformed liturgy as heretical or even deficient. I do think the unfortunate upheaval after the forced implementation of the Nikonian reforms does have something to teach us even today.
I will also abstain considering the wording of the question. Mid-1600s perhaps, but not the Baptism of Rus'.
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Aren't the Oregon Priested Old Believers in communion with Rome? I once read that their priest lives near Mount Angel Abbey and commemorates the Pope. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.
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More than 40 years ago, Hieromonk Feodor (Palczynski) was stationed at Mount Angel Abbey to provide assistance to the Old-Ritualists who had arrived in that vicinity and needed help acclimatizing to the USA, even in the relative quiet of that part of the Pacific Northwest. He had a small Old-Rite chapel at the monastery where he held services, assisted by one of the Benedictines. Rarely, a very few Old-Ritualists would stop in to a service.
Father Feodor, God rest his soul, fell asleep in the Lord many years ago and it eventually proved possible for the Old-Ritualists in Oregon, their daughter community in Alaska, and a relatived community in Canada, to obtain priests from the Metropolitan of Bila Krinytsia, who also sent a bishop (currently Archbishop Sophronius) to look after them, as well as the parishes in Australia.
They are not in communion with Rome - but to the best of my limited knowledge, they are not angry at anyone.
Fr. Serge
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More than 40 years ago, Hieromonk Feodor (Palczynski) was stationed at Mount Angel Abbey to provide assistance to the Old-Ritualists who had arrived in that vicinity and needed help acclimatizing to the USA, even in the relative quiet of that part of the Pacific Northwest. He had a small Old-Rite chapel at the monastery where he held services, assisted by one of the Benedictines. Rarely, a very few Old-Ritualists would stop in to a service.
Father Feodor, God rest his soul, fell asleep in the Lord many years ago and it eventually proved possible for the Old-Ritualists in Oregon, their daughter community in Alaska, and a relatived community in Canada, to obtain priests from the Metropolitan of Bila Krinytsia, who also sent a bishop (currently Archbishop Sophronius) to look after them, as well as the parishes in Australia.
They are not in communion with Rome - but to the best of my limited knowledge, they are not angry at anyone.
Fr. Serge Any websites by or about this group?
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The Church of the Nativity of Christ [ churchofthenativity.net] Welcome!
The Church of the Nativity of Christ is a Russian Orthodox Old Rite parish located in Erie, Pennsylvania. Our parish is a part of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) and is led by Archpriest Pimen Simon and Priest Theodore Jurewicz under the authority of Bishop Daniel.
We have regular weekly services on Saturday nights and Sunday mornings, as well as on special feasts. Our services are performed mostly in English, although some hymns and prayers remain in Slavonic.
We invite you to explore our new website to learn more about our parish, the Old Rite and Orthodox Christianity. Thank you for visiting us!
Our Mission: The Russian Orthodox Church of the Nativity of Christ will strive, above all else, to provide its members the means to salvation of souls and eternal life in Jesus Christ.
The Church will, through true worship of God in Jesus Christ and through the Grace of the Holy Spirit, endeavor to exemplify basic Christian principles as taught by Jesus Christ in the Holy Scriptures. Such principles include the need to love our neighbor as ourselves, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless.
As Christ commanded us to teach His Word to all nations, so must the Church provide a haven to those thirsting for spiritual enlightenment and human fulfillment.
We will commit ourselves to the treatment of each human being with genuine respect, dignity, and integrity.
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That "group" - if indeed there was an actual group - has not functioned in decades so they would scarcely have any websites.
Father Feodor was there, not to proselytize the Old-Ritualists, but to provide essential social services to them - he spoke both Russian and English and was able to help with the school system, the health-care system, the social security, and so on. He did not lack for work to do, and he was much appreciated. In turn, he came to appreciate the Old-Ritualists for their high standard of piety and practice, their steadfastness, and their fidelity to the heritage they have maintained down through the generations and even centuries. He often spoke of them, and gave precious details. He did maintain a chapel (dedicated to the Theotokos of Tikhvin) in the complex of Mount Angel Abbey -which had requested his assignment in the first place, and this reassured the Old-Ritualists that he was indeed a priest. During his service to them, Bishop Andrew (Katkoff) visited from Rome, and was very well received by the Old-Ritualists.
Again, I have no reason to think that they are angry at anyone.
Fr. Serge
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There appears to be some controversy with regards to Bp. Daniel of Erie, PA. He was, apparently at least at one point, against the reunion of the ROCOR with the MP, though a recent video exists in which the frail bishop reads, with some difficulty, a statement to the contrary. The official ROCOR/MP position is that the bishop cannot function normally because of health reasons. Some of those opposed to the reunion suspect that the bishop's capacities may have been negatively affected through nefarious means.
Not knowing anymore than what I've read elsewhere on the 'net, I'm not taking any position in this matter, but I do think that it should be pointed out that there are those who aren't "buying" the official positions.
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