www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church

Lawrence,

I think Joe and Apotheon have done a good job at responding to your question. I'll add my own two cents worth to the mix.

First, there is no one official view by the Orthodox Church on reunion with the Catholic Church because there is no one centralized organization for the Orthodox Church.

That said, I think that the Roman Catholic Church would need to adopt the Orthodox Church's view (summarized in parenthesis) on the following issues for reunion of these churches to take place.

1. the filioque
(The Orthodox Church regards it as an incorrect understanding of the Trinity, producing an incorrect understanding of grace and divinization, from an incorrect action by a bishop changing the language of the creed, when only an ecumenical council can change the language of the creed.)

2. the papacy
(The Orthodox Church regards the Bishop of Rome as only a "first among equals," without universal jurisdiction or supremacy.)

In other words, the Roman Catholic Church would have to accept that it is only one part of the Catholic Church, not the fullness or totality of the Catholic Church.

Therefore, the rest of the differences in beliefs and practices between the Orthodox and Roman Catholics would have to be treated as local variations. In other words, the Roman Catholic Church would have to treat its views on a variety of topics (for example, purgatory, the immaculate conception, "created" grace, etc.) as the tradition only of the Roman Church and not binding on the entire Church. Likewise would be true for Roman Catholic liturgical practices.

This would probably require a full ecumenical council of the Church, probably after much prayer, repentance and backroom negotiations.

Again, this is just my two cents worth.

-- John

I must confess I'm a bit puzzled by the discussion. Some folks seem to be claiming that we, the churches, should simply decide to be in communion with one another and that we should stop arguing over alleged differences? Or, am I misunderstanding things?

How would this work? Could the hierarchs simply decide that each church will go about its own business in its own way but that Catholics and Orthodox would be free to commune at any Catholic or Orthodox Church? And, whereas Catholics would be bound by the disciplines of the Pope regarding marriage and divorce, contraception, etc. the Orthodox Churches would not? I just don't see how this is possible. Yet, if all of the disagreement is merely semantical, then apparently we all agree on everything regarding faith and morals? But, I don't think we do. Would Orthodox Christians be bound by papal pronouncements on subjects like birth control, even after their Orthodox priests have told them that birth control is permissible in certain circumstances? This is just one practical problem that I see. How will Roman Catholics feel when they are told that they must be in absolute obedience to every papal decree but the Orthodox do not?

Joe

And I will just add that all that Rome would have to do would be to renounce the claims to universal jurisdiction and papal infallibility and we would easily be back in communion. Indeed, with some clarification, the Orthodox hieararchs might not even mind the filioque being in the Western version of the Creed, provided it was said only by the Latin Churches. But, this is precisely where we get to as close of an official position on the Church of Rome as we can from the Orthodox. Where Rome agrees with the Orthodox faith, we say that Rome teaches rightly. Where Rome disagrees, especially in claiming special powers for the papacy, we hold that she has departed from the ancient, Orthodox faith.

Joe

Joe

You make some very interesting points, and I'll add that the comments about love and understanding are rather perplexing when you consider that their seems to be little tension between Catholic and Orthodox laity. I can't remember ever hearing a single negative comment about the Orthodox at the Catholic churches I've attended. If anything, the Traditional Catholics I associate with, while disagreeing on certain doctrinal issues still respect the Orthodox for sticking to there guns and not tolerating all the nonsense we Catholics have over the last 40+ years. The same Catholics I know, also condemn in the strongest terms possible any persecution of Orthodox believers that has occured in various places around the world. In fact a couple of Serbian Orthodox women recently told me that while on a public demonstration in London in support of the Serbian minority in Kosovo, they were joined by several Irish Catholics.

From the Orthodox side, all my contacts have been very positive as well from the Greek Orthodox at my healthclub who attended Catholic HS to the Ukrainian Orthodox picnic I went to 2 weeks ago with a bunch of Ukie EC's. I talked current affairs with a few of the Orthodox and found I had more in common with them than with the vast majority of RC's. So on this point it appears at least to me, that most of us are adhering to the epistle of John and Paul "All You Need Is Love".

Dear Lawrence,

This is the flux of the question. If the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit were to enter the heart and minds of the theologians and the people, would they still perceive certain doctrines as being of total rejection, or would they find elements of 'understanding' and comprehension within them?

In that sense, are our differences in Church doctrine, differences in the possession of Grace given to each individual by god, or is it something we ourselves have contrived within our sinful selves. I say this as one that likes to perceive everything through the fruit it bears, and who see's so much holiness in others outside my own Church that I can't help but stand in awe of them.

God Bless,

Zenovia

I think RC and Orthodox laity are not at each others throats. While the bishops are fighting over their privileges and shrinking areas of influence, the laity seem to wisely realize we have common enemies that threaten our very existence. When our Byzantine Catholic mission started in my city, our biggest supporters were the clergy and laity from the local Greek Orthodox Church. The Orthodox said they loved the liturgy and wanted to see it more widespread.

"Finally, let them not think, indulging in a false eirenism, that the dissident and erring can happily be brought back to the bosom of the Church, if the whole truth found in the Church is not sincerely taught to all without corruption or diminution"

- Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, 1950

I would only add that it has been officially stated more than once, most recently this past month in the official CDF document on the nature of the Church, that Second Vatican Council has changed nothing of substance.

Best,
Robster

I'm not Catholic, but I agree with the gist of this post. I also agree with the gist of Pope Benedict's recent statement. If the Catholic Church truly believes it has the fullness of the truth, it should not equivocate on that point.

Personally, I don't think there is sufficient basis in shared beliefs and practices to justify reunion of the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. I really hope that the love that is being talked about will go into understanding and respecting each others' differences. Sometimes it's true: good fences make good neighbors.

I'll be away for the next few days; see you on Sunday; be well.

-- John

John,

I agree with this, and want to make it clear that I have not been advocating any kind of equivocation, which would be dishonest and therefore doomed to failure. In possessing the fullness of Christ, we likewise possess the fullness of the truth (cf. Jn. 14:6), and there's nothing to be ashamed of in that.

What I have been stressing is first of all that human words have shades of meaning and are subject to interpretation, hence mis-interpretation. Secondly, that the "defect" in the Orthodox Church that exists as a result of its being separated from the Catholic Church, arguably exists likewise in the Catholic Church as a result of its being separated from the Orthodox Church. I believe this statement is consistent with Pope John Paul's statement that we do not "... have the right to remain separate."

I'm not sure I agree with that in this case. There was a really good fence between East and West between the 5th and 10th centuries, and that was the source of a lot of our problems!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

No. If I were one I would immediately collapse to all the political pressure. I would be just as bad as the any of the rest who have collapsed. I would love that that everyone assumed my very holy just because I was dressed in the symbols. The burden of any priest is very very heavy. At least - it should be. If it is not ... they are not doing it right.

But to those who think that talk of love and charity is all nice and pretty but no real answer ... I have to ask them ...

(I will not ask them if they think Jesus and Paul are talking through their hats. Perhaps they were not serious and perhaps they were joking.) they might take that personally and it is not meant that way.

But I will ask ...

Do you have a free will? or are you the result of your environment?

Dead fish float down stream (Archbishop Sheen).

Of course, when you stop and weigh the task - it looks too hard. It doesn't make any sense. The same way Peter began to sink once he brought to his mind all the conventional reasons of why humans can not walk on water. It didn't make any sense ... and so he began to sink.

I think Peter's walk on water is the prime example of - just do it! when He asks you to do it. Now isn't that what faith is all about? It doesn't make any sense - well - just do it!

Jesus left one commandment and one commandments - only. Wow. That means it is the most important thing he ever said to us! The ONE thing he wanted to be sure - we did do.

Love one another.

This one act will fulfill the entire law.

The love of ... friendship.

I love the sermon that I heard about one time ... an Orthodox priest came forward and said to his congregation ... "You know what to do. Go out and do it." .. end of sermon. Now you just know that everyone in the congregation just groaned - because all excuses were gone.

Real love - is not a compromise of ones values. The specter of having to give up ones own values in order to love is certainly scary ... but is it real?

Nope.

Love that is made through social sameness, social conformity, at best it this type of 'love' is negotiations appropriate to business deals. It is looking for the best return on your investment. It is not human love and it is not charity.

There is a problem with Christianity today.

Q: What is that problem?
A: We no longer believe Jesus.

We no longer believe in Providence. We no longer believe in charity. We no loner believe in faith. We no longer ... believe.

We want reasons, justifications, facts, proof, and we do not want any sacrifices to take away what we hold dear.

No wonder others look at us and say "Christianity doesn't work'" - we have emptied it to a shell. Look at us. There is something really wrong with Christianity when we can say charity is nice - but no real answer.

Myself included.

It is a real leap of faith - like falling off a cliff backwards and not being real sure invisible arms will catch you.

I wonder what it would be like tomorrow ... if for one day .. I radically believed Jesus and acted as if I did?

I am afraid to try it - it might change my life.

I have said all this mostly as advise to myself. No one else.

Sometimes my bed time prayers are only two words... "Providence .. conscience ... Providence ... conscience ... " it is a reminder to myself but also a prayer that God grant me to always, and more and more, live by both. Above all ... "Providence ... conscience ... Providence ... conscience ..." I look forward to the day when it starts working.

-ray

Ray,

I guess I'm just not clear as to what you are proposing. Are you suggesting that we just declare by fiat that we are all in communion and then receive communion in one another's churches? Perhaps, we could just end all of the theological commissions and just agree not to discuss anything that might bring up disagreement?

Or, are you suggesting that the Churches declare full communion in spite of the serious disagreements and then say, "for now, we will agree to disagree but we are welcome at each other's communion tables and perhaps we can work these doctrinal differences out?"

Joe

Dear Joe,

You are lacking a comprehension of what is being said. No one is saying to go to each one's communion tables with disagreements, but rather to allow the disagreements to dissapate through the workings of the Holy Spirit.

We should allow our minds and hearts to be influenced and enlightened by elements outside of ourselves. In other words, we think and feel according to the extent of Grace within us. If our love and humility is sufficiently high, then our Lord can work through our minds and hearts, and the problems we have caused in the Church because of our faulty nature, will gradually go away.

We are the one's that have caused the split in the Churches, and only our Lord can correct those differences through His enlightenment, so that they will cease to exist.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Zenovia,

I can appreciate what you are saying but this still does not settle the fact that either the pope has universal jurisdiction over the church or he doesn't. Either the pope is infallible or he isn't. One side is right and the other is wrong. We should pray and speak to one another in love and humility, but that is not going to solve the doctrinal problems.

Joe

Greetings Joe,

It will give us the ability to solve them. It's the lack of those virtues of love and himility you mention that many contend has us in the boat we're in. These virtues must enter us first more fully to deal with the tasks ahead.

If you look at the barabic nature of mankinds history its apparent that we've made much progress but yet have a way to go as the Holy Spirit continues to instill in us Gods graces.

All the disagreements and dissention is indicative of that struggle. It doesn't appear to be within ourselves to overcome.

Yours in Christ.

"Do not accept anything as the truth if it lacks love. And do not accept anything as love which lacks truth."

-- St. Edith Stein