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Simple Sinner,

Sad to say that some of these people are solidly orthodox in their views, and yet still remain convinced. Some are even good friends of mine.

Gordo

Same here! I have found you can't reason with apparition chasers. Some years ago, I read the statement by the Yugoslavian Bishops Conference saying nothing supernatural was happening, but the response from the believers is still along the lines of, "but Rome hasn't spoken." I don't think Rome usually adresses apparitions since the responsibility falls on the local bishop.

I already told her my feelings about Medjugorie and other apparitions, but she wouldn't listen.

Just repeat it gently but firmly...

"I would be interested in discussing other things, with you, but I am not interested in discussing apparitions."

Years ago I had a friend who would want to discuss some pet apparitions frequently. When the topic came up, I would suggest maybe our time would be better spent praying a chaplet or rosary. This was very frequently an agreeable proposition to both parties.

I used to take the time and effort to try to site the rulings of the local bishop, to point out that many of the local Franciscans are uncanonical and without faculties, that each and every time a persons spends money and time on a visit to that place, they drive past or fly over the Eucharist - where Christ REALLY is - to get to some place where they are hoping Mary MIGHT be... I used to point out that the money spent on plane tickets or "Books of messages" would and could go a lot further if donated to the missions or seminaries, or struggling rural and urban parishes...

Now, I just decline to discuss them.

You raise some great points. But would you deny that at times and places to many different saints Mary has appeared and that some events in church history are significant for these reasons such as the approved apparitions of Fatima or Guadalupe? Should people have ignored these just because Christ was already present in the local tabernacles? Or are you saying this simply because people are putting so much time, money, and energy into phenomena that is not approved or potentially harmful? Do you feel this way accross the board about all apparitions across the board, or just the ones that appear suspect?
The only reason I want to give Medjogorge a fighting chance is because I read this book about how it happened and this man Father Jozo. It seemed like a genuine conversion of the whole town had taken place and that the messages were helpful.
Though recently I have been hearing more about this from of all places a Ukrainian Catholic Church where a lot of traditionalist Catholics go on weekdays, and some of what they told me seemed pretty out there/apocalyptic and hard to believe. I am confused. Have we lost the point of the thread though. Maybe this should have been another posting. Or is it ok to jump around?

Sorry to steer us so far off track!

Let me ask my fellow Eastern Catholics: do you use your imagination when you pray? What have your spiritual fathers have to say to in this regard?

And how can St. Ignatius of Loyola and the Fathers of the Philokalia be reconciled?

________

How do you distinguish "imagination" from "contemplation"? A true pastoral question which cannot be answered on an internet forum. The conditions are too intricate and personal to be judged on such a forum.

For the forthcoming Feast of the Transfiguration the pre-festive Psalm 140 Doxastichon reads:

Come,let us ascend the mountain of the Lord
and go into the house of our God.
Let us contemplate the glory of His Transfiguration,
the glory of the only-begotten Son of God the Father.
From his light, let us receive light;
and raised up by the Holy Spirit,
let us sing the praises of the consubstantial Trinity forever.

Obviously we are exhorted to contemplate the wonders and mysteries of God. The gray line to be drawn is... when does contemplation and meditation become "imagination."
Moderation must be observed, for to shut out any contemplation or meditation is to reject the Holy Spirit; on the other hand, over-reliance upon one's own "ability" to understand God's mysteries is dangerous.

Powerful prayer must includes receptiveness to the "whispers" and "groaning" of the Holy Spirit. Prayer includes "listening" to God, as well as talking to Him. Pastoral or "elder's" guidance is necessary when unsure.


This article may help to this reconciliation: Http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm

The Epilogue of this online book addresses your questions:

The Psychological Basis of Mental Prayer in the Heart [timiosprodromos3.blogspot.com]

Paul, I do not think your citation re: the contemplation of the Thaboric light really bears on what I'm getting at, inasmuch as that Light transcends sense in the Eastern exegesis, whereas what I'm wondering about is the proper role of the imagination, as oriented towards things of *sense*, in Orthodox prayer.

I did not see how that article helped. It affirmed that for beginners, prayer must be 'thought-free,' which doesn't seem in keeping with Ignatian spirituality.

Jargon, that looks good, I only read part of it. I'd like to read more of what he had to say on St. Thomas Aquinas' anthropology.

He's extremely thorough with his examination and comparisons and he appears to have no polemical agenda.

It is the stillness of mind achieved through the experience of the divine energy that leads to union with the triune God, who is beyond form and being, and -- as I see it -- the stirrings of the imagination would only get in the way of that process. Thus, in the Orthodox spiritual tradition the use of imaginative visions or images in prayer seems counterproductive, since the goal of prayer is hesychia (i.e., stillness of mind).

Have I stopped beating my wife?!?!?

No!

I mean I never did!

I mean, I am not even married, and if I were I wouldn't touch her I swear!

You ask so many questions with a presupposition of my answers or reasoning! It is hard to keep up...

I will start at the end with what I think answers it all...

"Or are you saying this simply because people are putting so much time, money, and energy into phenomena that is not approved or potentially harmful? "

BINGO.

I don't need Fr. Jozo and his gang to tell me that the BVM is telling them to tell me to fast, go to confession and say the rosary.

I REALLY don't like how some have become AS obssessed with "knowing the message today" like some sort of neo-gnostic as they are with living the faith.

Very honestly, I think it is a fraud.

Todd,

I agree with you that the ultimate goal in Orthodox spirituality is imageless prayer and the stillness of the mind. But in the earlier stages of development in prayer, would it not make sense that some image or use of imagination (I'm not referring to fantasy, of course, but even the memory of an icon, as I alluded to earlier) would be helpful? I'm also unclear how one can avoid the use of imagination when reading the accounts of the Gospel or the life of a saint. As I read the story, my imagination is playing out the events in my mind. So long as I am not attempting to go beyond the account itself, it would seem that hesychia would not preclude the use of imagination in this manner.

Your thoughts?

In ICXC,

Gordo

Paul,

Great points. Even when I read the phrase "contemplate the glory of His transfiguration" my mind immediately went to the icon of the feast. As I am sitting at my keyboard right now with now icon of the feast before me, I used my imagination to "gaze" momentarily at the "glory" reflected in the image, at least. Such things as this which naturally happen in prayer sometimes seem to be useful and good.

Again, I think the distiction is between fantasy and the proper use of imagination.

Maybe Father Anthony, Father Maximos or another monastic here has some guidance to offer (by way of general principle) in this regard?

In ICXC,

Gordo

Medjugorie isn`t approved by the Vatican anyway, at least as far as I know. There are lots of Latin Catholics who don`t believe in the revelations from Medjugorie. And since we are not required to accept private revelations that might be the best thing to say to those who are pushing them when they make you feel uncomfortable.