www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Theotokos, Mother of God, Bohorodice

Asking this question because of the use of the word Theotokos is like asking if ROCOR was no longer a Byzantine Slavic Church. I know my Jordanville prayerbook uses Theotokos when necessary and no one would ever think to ask if ROCOR was no longer a Slavic Church.

technically the greek came before the as you call it, the byzantine slavic church. as a matter of fact, it wasn't until the 300's ad that latin became the langauge in the western empire that most people spoke........... they spoke greek. latin was more of a government/business language then. so
i wouldn't be too upset by theotokos. it is after all, the original term and great history surrounds the term.
oh, and where do you think cyrill and methodios devised the cyrill alphabet from? hmm..... greek.

Please read the post prior to my last question.

I did not ask my question simply because the Greek word "theotokos" has been imported into the Ruthenian liturgy, but because John K said that the new translation is based on the Greek version of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and was only compared with the Slavonic version.

That is historically interesting, but quite irrelevant. The liturgy is not an archeological dig, and so we are not trying to find the oldest elements and throw out the rest.

If the translators wanted have an esoteric sounding word in the English translation of the liturgy, why not just use a Slavonic term for Mary's divine maternity.

Probably because they were not looking for an "esoteric sounding word", but the right word to use - just as we say "Amen" rather than "So be it", and few would describe that as Judaizing.

I would guess that MOST of the members of this board belong to predominantly Slavic rather than predominantly Greek eastern Churches; yet we say "troparion" rather than "tropar" (Slavonic) or "growth song" (if one insisted on Englishing everything). Does that mean that this forum has an agenda to "de-Slavify" the liturgy? Not at all. I think it's safe to say that given a choice between troparion / kontakion / Communion Hymn and tropar / kondak / prichasten, we generally use a set of "commonly accepted terms", some Greek, some Hebrew, some English - but few of which are Slavic, since there is usually a more widely-used Greek or English term in Orthodoxy for any particular Slavic term.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

Jeff,

Thank you for your response. I still do not see any reason to introduce the Greek word "theotokos" into the Byzantine Slav liturgy, since it has not traditionally been used in the Ruthenian Church in the USA (unlike "amen," and the other terms you referenced).

God bless,
Todd

One opinion is that Saints Cyril and Methodius when translating the Slavonic liturgy did not retain this term. Many terms such as the vestments were retained but without the "ion", so "sticharion" becomes "stichar". Terms for the warm water used in the chalice such as "zeon" became "teplota".

The Hymn to the Mother of God/Theotokos/Bohorodice/Birth-giver of God/God-bearer/ sung after the Troparion at Vespers and Matins is called "Theotokion", but in Slavonic became Bohorodicen. One problem is which term would you use in Engish for this hymn.

The venerable term "Theotokos" has always been problematic in terms of translating it into modern languages. As an iconographer, I have always retained the Greek letters when labeling an icon of the Mother of God. But these letters (MP OY)do not say "Theotokos" but "Miter Theu".

Interestingly, here is an example of an icon labled not in Greek, but Slavonic. It is an wonderful example of Serbian iconography from the 14th century icon of the Virgin and Child painted by King Stevan Uros III in 1327 and completed by his son, Stevan Dusan. http://www.kosovo.net/decanska_y.jpg

By translating the term "Theotokos" for liturgical use, we may be actually closer to the spirit and tradition of Saints Cyril and Methodius.

Regardless on how you feel about this issue/non-issue, don't we need a sense of wonder and awesomeness about the incarnation of God the Word? Mary said it beautifully, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. For with God nothing will be impossible." And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." Luke 1:34-35,37-38

Oh, great and marvelous wonder!!!

Ray

Does the OCA's use of Theotokos negate their Slavic heritage? Does the Antiochian Church's use of Theotokos negate their Arabic language heritage? I personally welcome the use of Theotokos in the DL, and it is one of the revisions I'm actually happy with.

Ryan

I do not see how it could. That said, if you read the posts in this thread in order, you will see that my question arose because a poster in this thread claimed that the new revised liturgy used a Greek version of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom instead of a Slavonic version.

I love the word theotokos too, but I still do not see why it was introduced into an English translation of the liturgy of the Ruthenian Church. What was the pressing need for this revision?

Changing substance to essence I am fine with, dropping the filioque is great, but what was the reason for the introduction of the term theotokos into the Ruthenian liturgy. Now let me be clear about this, I am not offended by the use of the word theotokos in the divine liturgy, while the use of so-called inclusive language on the other hand is offensive, but what is the logic underlying this particular revision?

Todd,

I see your point and had never really considered it before. Hmm...I'd go for it.

Another note, I am not entirely opposed to Birth-giver or God-Bearer either as titles for the Theotokos.

This is more than a claim and, I believe, goes to the fundamental question of the status of the Ruthenian Recension for the RDL; see Status of the Ruthenian Recension. I am comfortable with the terms Theotokos and Anaphora but they seem forced in the RDL translation. Why the need for this Hellenization when there are English words and expressions, rendered through the Slavonic at the least, that work quite nicely?

Dn. Anthony

Anaphora as a technical term is not really translatable - but I'm not so sure that it is being used in that technical sense in the Deacon's ecphonesis Let us stand aright! Let us stand in peace! . . . Moreover, no one has ever claimed the sanction of and Ecumenica Council for the word "Anaphora".

Theotokos, however, is another matter. This term has the direct sanction of the Council of Ephesus - and the Latin version of the Acts of that Council retain the Greek term Theotokos. There are many titles for Her; surely we can cope with one Greek word. Consider this: if the Byzantine-Slav Churches were to insist on retaining Bohoroditza in English, the other Churches of various linguistic backgrounds would have every right to insist on doing the same thing - with the result being liturgical cacophony. The Greek word has been established in English usage for a couple of centuries; we can learn to put up with it.

Fr. Serge

Me again - sorry about that! I just read some posts that I missed earlier in the day.

Anyone who claims to fear that the use of one Greek word will make him cease to be Byzantine-Slavic has a simple solution available: serve and pray in Church-Slavonic (and please learn the alphabet). Or serve in modern Ukrainian, modern Belarusyn, Slovak, Russian, or any other Slavic language that may please you.

But that whole sub-argument reminds me of a friend of mine who forty years ago (well, okay, 39 years and 11 months ago) was after me to "re-translate" Silent Night into English, not from the original German (which I don't speak anyway), but from the unoriginal Carpatho-Russian - and no, I am NOT making that up!

As an illustration of just how absurd this could become, who would like to translate this sentence:

Please psall the Bi-Wajib in the Grave Hlas.

I'm not holding my breath.

Fr. Serge

It is pretty clear that no one in this thread has argued that the use of single Greek word in the Byzantine Slav liturgy alters the liturgy radically. But the use of the Greek version of the liturgy instead of the Slavonic version, as John K and Deacon Anthony mentioned, is another matter altogether.

Deacon Anthony, thank you for the link to the other thread, it was quite informative.

God bless,
Todd