www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Theotokos, Mother of God, Bohorodice

Dear Father Deacon,

But layfolk were praying in English LONG before that - and these prayers were well-known to anyone involved with Catholic culture in the New World. Thus, the GCU printed a Psalter in the 1920's - and used the Douai translation. I have a Greek Catholic children's prayerbook from the era that renders the small doxology as "Glory to the Father", and Bohoroditsa as "Birth Giver of God" - but everyone knew that "all Catholics" said "Glory BE to the Father" and "Mother of God", and these are the translations that made it into our Liturgy. Thus, long before the Second Vatican Council, texts like the Rosary prayers conditioned how early translations of our prayers and texts came to be - whether we used the same or different translations, you couldn't avoid the fact that Latin-Rite Catholics already had translations of many of the same sorts of texts.

Jeff

When the Latins come up with a poor translation of something or other (which is not surprising, since Latins tend to translate Greek from Latin instead of the original - i'm still recovering from the discovery that for the Syro-Malabar 1962 Eucharist they first translated the entire Syriac text into Latin, approved the Latin, and then translated the Latin back into Syriac!), we are not in the least obligated to copy their mistake ("per omnia saecula saeculorum" is an obvious case in point; there are others).

Fr. Serge

Try "Eucharist" - that is beyond question a Greek word! But to the wider issue, it is of course possible for a Greek word to "become" an English word (as Eucharist has done), and to be more-or-less anglicized into the bargain. This emphatically does not mean, however, that it ceases to be a Greek word. "Regime" is common enough in English - but it's still a French word (or in some contexts, an Italian word: you can tell by the meaning).

In case anyone is wondering, this also works in reverse - English words sometimes find themselves functioning in other languages, occasionally with meanings that seem unrelated (check out the origin of the Russian word вокзал, which in Russian means a train station). If this sort of thing amuses you, track the word "taxi" from Greek into several modern European languages, including English, and then back into Greek.

And so on.

Another question caught my eye:


Both the Greek and the Slavonic are primary points of reference here, for texts and rubrics - and so are certain other editions of particular importance. Speculation is another matter; it may be interesting but it cannot be a primary point of reference!

Fr. Serge

Deacon Anthony,

I appreciate your posts, because you express far better than I can the concerns that I have about the new revised liturgy.

That said, I still see no reason why the Greek term "theotokos" had to be inserted into the English language translation of the Ruthenian Church's liturgy. Does this Greek word appear in the Slavonic version of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?

God bless,
Todd

But it does not satisfy the criterion I specified. Even so, where does it occur, transliterated (like Anaphora and Theotokos), in an English version of the liturgy?

And when they are not in agreement? Again, I raise the questions in the context of Status of the Ruthenian Recension.

Dn. Anthony

What's wrong with per omnia saecula saeculorum?

AJK asks:


In Latin, there is nothing wrong with it. But the usual Roman Catholic translation is either "world without end", which is sheer nonsense, or "forever and ever", which isn't much better. Translating a noun with an adverb surely requires a serious explanation.

Fr. Serge

I thought that was of Anglican origin and was adopted as common English usage by Catholics. Consider this from a Collect in the 1549 BCP:

Todd, it does not, in either Old Rite or Nikonian Slavonic texts. It does not in any Ukrainian translations. I believe the first time it shows up specifically as Theotokos in a Slavic liturgical text is in a "Living Church" manuscript. And, as I mentioned previously, the arguably most competent translator of Old Rite texts into English decided to retain "Mother of God".

Thank you.

Don't we sing (for those that still use some Slavonic)

...Bo-ho-ro-di-ce Di-va, Ra-du-sja......

not....The-e-e-o-to-kos Di-va, Ra-du-sja.......

Sounds funny don't it?

I learned that Sts. Cyril & Methodius created a language based on Greek lettering for us Slavs to use. Nowhere have I read that they picked-and-choosed certain words for inclusion into the Liturgy.

As I've stated before, what is next, replacing Hospodi pomiluj with Kyrie laison, or Christos Voskrese with Kristos Anesti?!?

oops, missed a typo...

should be ra-duj sja (not ra-du-sja)

Since you ask, I have frequently heard "Kyrie Eleison" chanted at a Divine Liturgy which was otherwise entirely in Slavonic, and I have frequently heard "Khristos Anesti ... " sung with gusto and enjoyment at Pascha in an otherwise Church-Slavonic service. Nobody fainted from shock, or went away muttering about "hellenization".

And, to top it off, there is a lovely recording available in L'viv, I think from the Studites, of various pieces of liturgical music, including "Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos" - which is the only piece sung on the entire CD in Greek!

Then again, do you really object to singing "Azios" at ordinations? Do you not know that our older Church-Slavonic liturgical books actually prescribe the chanting of "Kyrie eleison" at certain times?

Loyalty to one's own culture is a fine thing - but it should include an appreciation of the roots of that culture.

Fr. Serge

Can't contribute re responses etc in Slavonic - but as recently as last weekend I heard responses to petitions in DL that were made in French being answered by "Kyrie eleison ' and the chandelier was still in place afterwards.

I also know that when in Lourdes and we are using French for some Litanies and prayers , the response in the Litany is also ' Kyrie eleison '

The Liturgical books from Chevetogne [ peoples books and the Hieratikon ] also use 'Kyrie eleison' too

I remember listening to a recording of an excerpt of a Divine Liturgy at the Serbian Decani monastery, where on would normally expect OCS, and the opening litany was chanted in Greek but using the haunting and surprisingly modern-sounding Serbian chant.