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#247711 08/03/07 09:13 PM
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I received a number of Byzantine Catholic hymn books from my family a few days ago and began looking through them. Unfortunately, they have no musical notation in them � just words. I remembered a website from this forum that does have musical notation with such texts so I printed them out to follow along with the books I just received and discovered that some of the hymns (at least the ones I looked at) were changed too in addition to the Byzantine worship service (liturgy) everyone is discussing these days. This perked my interest in whether word changes were going on in these books too.

I would like to point out one example in where the website version (Metropolitan Cantor Institute or MCI) differs from the older Festal Menaion hymn book (FM) from 1985. The �FM� book was published by the Sisters of Saint Basil the Great and the hymn in question can be found on page 11 (5th paragraph down). The book has this hymn for September 7.

Here are the two versions of the text.

Festal Menaion (FM)

�O Lord our God, your holy martyr Sozon has deserved the crown of immortality on account of his good fight. Armed with your strength, he has vanquished his persecutors and crushed Satan�s dreadful might. Through his supplications, O Christ our God, save our souls.�

MCI (from there website)

�Your martyr Sozon, O Lord our God, in his struggle, received an incorruptible crown from you. With your strength, he brought down the tyrants and broke the cowardly valor of demons. Through his prayers, O Christ our God, save our souls.�

My comments and questions.

1. FM has Sozon receiving a �crown of immortality� unlike the �incorruptible crown� as stated in the MCI version. Which is it? Is the crown immortal in itself � a magical crown � or was Sozon crowned with his just reward: immortality?

2. FM has Sozon receiving the crown of immortality �on account of his good fight� but MCI states that it was on account of his �strength.� What was it? An actual fight or because Sozon was just a strong person?

3. FM has Sozon "armed" with Your (Lord's) strength, but MCI only has "with your strength" (no mention of any arms). Is this an attempt to get away with military-like terms that might offend those with anti-war sentiments? Was Sozon a warrior?

4. FM mentions that Sozon �has vanquished his persecutors� but the MCI version only mentions �tyrants.� Were these impersonal(?) tyrants in his face as much as his persecutors who kept torture and fights very personal?

5. FM also mentions in addition to his persecutors that Sozon �crushed Satan�s dreadful might,� but this imagery was scaled down to �breaking� (not crushing) the �cowardly valor� (not the same as dreadful might) �of demons� (Satan�s role is replaced by lesser devils). What is the reason for the G-rated version of doing battle with Satan?

6. FM calls attention Sozon�s �supplications� (begging, asking, petitioning) instead of the generic MCI �prayers.�

7. Which version is correct? Are there even older versions that might shed light on what is going on with the wording changes? I get the feeling that this watered down version against fighters/warriors and would rather prefer get in touch with your inner strength.

Eddie Hashinsky


EdHash #247713 08/03/07 09:26 PM
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From one website (forgot the website address). which version of the hymn above best represents this man's life?





Born in Cilicia; died c. 304. A young shepherd boy name Tarasius was baptized, despite the persecution that Christians were undergoing, and took the name Sozon. While he was sleeping in the field one day, he dreamed that Jesus told him to lay aside the weapons that he used to protect his sheep and--taking only his shepherd's crook--prepare himself to die for his faith.
Sozon knew exactly what to do. He walked to the town of Pompeiopolis, where there was a pagan temple with a golden idol. He broke off one of the idol's golden hands with his crook and gave pieces of it to the poor of the town. He might have escaped punishment, except that some other Christians were arrested and unjustly accused of damaging the idol. Sozon could not allow them to suffer in his stead, so he confessed his crime.

With nails driven through the soles of his shoes, Sozon was forced to walk to the amphitheater. The magistrate wanted to release the courageous prisoner and asked him to play a tune on his pipe to the crowd. Sozon refused. He had, he said, once played to sheep. Now he would play only to God. He was then burned to death at the stake (Benedictines, Bentley).



Another website has the "tyrant" as Maximian the Emperor, but in Christian theology are we really dealing in essence with a tyrant or the Devil himself? If the MCI version was worded to take into account the emperor why didn't it take into account Sozon's vision of his staff as a weapon? What of St. Paul's "armor" analogy? Sozon seemed to take on the armor of Christ no matter how horrible that may sound to pacifists. We are dealing with warfare.

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Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Mr. Hash:

The troparion to which you refer was not written to commemorate the life of the holy martyr Sozon. Instead, it is a troparion from the "General Service for One Martyr," which is used for many different saints. In September alone, for example, this text is sung for

1. The holy martyr Mamas (Sept. 4)
2. The holy martyr Sozon (Sept. 7)
3. The holy martyr Severian (Sept. 9)
and, with the verbs changed to plural forms, for
4. The holy martyrs Eustace and companions (Sept. 20) and
5. The holy martyrs Callistratus and companions (Sept. 27).

The only true way to resolve your conundrum about the words of the Troparion is to go back to the original Greek. Since that is not particularly easy on this Forum, let me show you another form of the text altogether, given in a more archaic form of English:

Troparion, Tone 4 :

Thy Martyr, O Lord (name), / hast through his sufferings obtained from Thee O our God an incorruptible crown; / for rejoicing in Thy strength, / he overcame his tormentors and subdued the impotent offenses of the demons; / by his intercessions O Lord save our souls.

This is from a Russian Orthodox site.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA


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Originally Posted by Professor J. Michael Thompson
The troparion to which you refer was not written to commemorate the life of the holy martyr Sozon. Instead, it is a troparion from the "General Service for One Martyr," which is used for many different saints. In September alone, for example, this text is sung for

1. The holy martyr Mamas (Sept. 4)
2. The holy martyr Sozon (Sept. 7)
3. The holy martyr Severian (Sept. 9)
and, with the verbs changed to plural forms, for
4. The holy martyrs Eustace and companions (Sept. 20) and
5. The holy martyrs Callistratus and companions (Sept. 27).

hello Professor, I was wondering why the older wording, which does refer to his actual sufferings, was changed to a generic hymn? the older wording seemed to tell the story of Saint Sozon which is edifying. Wouldn't you think that singing the same generic hymn for everyone would end up being boring? it would be like reading Butler's lives of the saints and reading the same boiler plate story on every page, but with only the names changed. why did the FM hymn book prefer to 'tell the saint story' rather than the MCI version? I would think that the FM version would be more instructive for those who wanted to know who they were singing about. was the FM book objectionable because of this?

Where can one go to read the original Greek wording of Saint Sozon?

Eddie

EdHash #247773 08/04/07 11:26 AM
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Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Mr. Hash:

You have made the assumption that the Troparion that you read for September 7 was written specifically for the feast of the holy martyr Sozon, and based your interpretation on that assumption. That assumption is incorrect.

Many of the lower-ranked feasts of the Byzantine Calendar utilize the same troparion. I pointed out to you in the previous post on this thread that five feasts in September use the troparion you mention. This is NOT something that is a recent liturgical change.

To find a text that is more likely to be specific to the saint, you should check out the Kontakion for any given day. While there are "general" Kontakia, their use is not as wide-spread as the common Troparia.

I hope this helps.

Prof. Thompson



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Professor.

Do you normally talk down to people?

My comparison was between the wording of the FM books and the MCI edition. Whether it was written for Sozon or not, the MCI version did alter the wording substantially, generic version or not. I want to know why. Altering words in Christian worship is of interest. maybe you can provide insight.

Please refer to my observations 1 thru 6. You failed to answer any one of them. I would like to concentrate on these if you don't mind.

If these words were used by you Byzantine Catholics for so long (with or without official approval), why the word change even in generic hymns? The MCI version seems to be a 'lite' version for martyrs.

Eddie Hashinsky

EdHash #247837 08/04/07 08:57 PM
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Dear Eddie,

First, as Professor Thompson pointed out, your comparison of the translation to the details of St. Sozon's life doesn't make a WHOLE lot of sense if the troparion wasn't written for him.

Second: many of the Basilian translations are fairly free (i.e. non -literal). If you like the particular Scriptural references that you see, that's wonderful, but that doesn't mean they are in the original text. For example, here is a translation of the same troparion for Nicholas Orloff's VERY literal General Menaion of 1899:

Thy martyr, O Lord (mentioned by name), through his suffering, an incorruptible crown did obtain from Thee, our God; for, rejoicing in Thy strength, he laid low his tormentors and did beat off impotent affronts of the demons also; at his intercessions save our souls.

The text in the MCI Menaion (same as in the new People's Book) is actually closer to this translation (which omits the points you chose as important) than is the Basilian translation. Unless you're VERY familiar with the base text and the translation possibilities, it's probably a mistake to claim that what you see in a particular translation is most important ; it's way too easy to make unwarranted accusations. For example, you could claim that the Basilians only believe in a "generic evil" called Satan, and don't believe in demons, so they changed "demons" to "Satan"; they omit the insult of "cowardly", so they are "soft" on evil and want to be "nice" to everyone, even Satan; and by saying "dreadful" the nuns are teaching us to fear Satan's power instead of despising it - thus, they are actually glorifying evil. None of which (needless to say) is true; they just used a free translation.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

P.S. The Orloff translation, the one Professor Thompson quoted and the new one all explicitly state that the martyr's crown comes from God, while the Basilian translation says that the martyr deserved it. That, too, is a difference in emphasis. One would need to look at a variety of sources to decide which was better - or whether they were simply alternatives. Why cast aspersions ("G-rated" and such) on limited information?

ByzKat #247842 08/04/07 09:30 PM
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I think I will return to the Bible; you know, the one that still uses "sons of God" instead of the generic "children of God". a little humor there ---

It would probably do me good to return all these hymn books since they are worthless. It is all too confusing, I admit. you guys can write and sing anything you want. It only proves thta the Catholic Church DOES change its beliefs to suit its needs and that people like me will only be led in circles.

Eddie

EdHash #247844 08/04/07 09:47 PM
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Dear Eddie,

Not at all! But we go to the Church's hymns as opportunities to praise God, and focus our attention where the Church points us, in order to find Him, praise Him and learn from Him. I'm simply saying that if you approach anything - including Bible translations - in order to prove a point, or use the hymns for your own purposes, that can become a spiritual hazard. There is certainly nothing in any of these translations that demonstrates a change of belief; it simply shows that every word fails in COMPLETELY comprehending the things of God, or even in capturing all the meanings a hymn had in another language. Don't let yourself be led to conclude that words are worthless.

From the saints' hymns, we learn about God's holy ones, and what the Church most values; any translation can be a vehicle for this. (By the way, the services CAN be confusing, and take years to learn your way around; that's why so often laypeople replaced them with other devotions. But you CAN learn from them and pray with them, and no one here minds your questions about them, I'm sure.)

May God bless you in all things!

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

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P.S. Since you repeated your request for specific answers:

1. The incorruptible crown is that reward which the Lord gives to his martyrs, both an honor and a symbol of honor, which does not rust, which cannot be stolen or lost- unlike earthly honors. It is also connected with the incorruptibility of the heavenly life itself; the two are inseparable.

2. If you look carefully, the MCI texts says he received the reward "in his struggle" - other translations refer to sufferings or passion, and the FM says "on account of his good fight". The reference to "strength" is the NEXT phrase. The point here is that the martyr struggled, suffered, and conquered (thus, the crown, symbolizing and glory).

3. The FM's mention of "armed" is not found in most other English versions; it is an Engish idiom.

4. Since this is a general troparion, the reference is to human persecutors, of whom the archetype is the tyrant to put the the young men in the furnace (of which we are reminded daily at the 8th Ode of Matins). So the second phrase shows us that the martyrs contested BOTH with human opponents, and spiritual powers.

5. As you can see from the other versions, FM's reference to Satan is in the minority. The Slavonic has demonov.

6. The prayers of the martyr are obviously intercessory, since we hope to gain mercy by them - whether one calls them supplications, intercessions or prayers. The Slavonic word is "molitvami"; a molitvennik is a prayer-book. "In peace let us pray to the Lord" - "Mirom Hospodu po(-)molimsja".

7. Yes, the thing to do is to look at older versions, in Greek, Slavonic (which are often terribly literal translations of the Greek), and English. Feel free to ask for pointers to other translations; the MCI website mentions several.



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