www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Papacy and the Eastern-rite

To be fair to Todd's point (and he knows I do not fully agree with all of his points), it is not an argument in favor of Catholic teaching on the papacy to say that the Latin Church would fall apart without it.

Sobornicity is distinguished from an undifferentiated unity by being of a special kind, the unity of communion. The Roman Catholic Church has lost this sense of catholicity as communion, for the doctrine of papal primacy and the ecclesiastical magisterium make impossible the communion of all the members of the Church in all things. The Roman Catholic Church remains content with the unity which characterizes a body under command, and it has replaced the unity of communion (catholicity or sobornicity properly so-called) with the universality in the sense of geographical extension. [Dumitri Staniloae, Theology and the Church, trans. Robert Barringer (Crestwood, NY: St. Vladimir's, 1980), 56-57]

At this, Elder John rose up like a white candle and answered quietly: "Great sovereign! What we value most in Christianity is Christ himself -- in his person. All comes from him, for we know that in him dwells all fullness of the Godhead bodily. We are ready, sire, to accept any gift from you, if only we recognize the holy hand of Christ in your generosity. Our candid answer to your question, what can you do for us, is this: Confess now and before us the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who came in the flesh, rose, and who will come again -- Confess his name, and we will accept you with love as the true forerunner of his second glorious coming."
The Elder finished his speech and fixed his eyes on the face of the Emperor. A terrible change had come over it. A hellish storm was raging within him, like the one he experienced on that fateful night. He had completely lost his inner equilibrium, and was concentrating all his thoughts on preserving external control, so that he should not betray himself inopportunely. He was making a superhuman effort not to throw himself with wild howls on Elder John and begin tearing him with his teeth.

Suddenly, he heard a familiar, unearthly voice: "Be silent and fear not!" He remained silent. Only his face, livid like death, looked distorted and his eyes flashed. In the meantime, while Elder John was still making his speech, the great magician, wrapped in the ample tri-colored mantle that covered nearly all his cardinal's purple, could be seen busily manipulating something concealed beneath it. The magician's eyes were fixed and flashing, and his lips moved slightly. Through the open windows of the temple an immense black cloud could be seen covering the sky. Soon, complete darkness set in.

Elder John, startled and frightened, stared at the face of the silent Emperor. Suddenly, he sprang back and, turning to his followers, shouted in a stifled voice: "Little children, it is Anti-Christ!"

At this moment, a great thunderbolt flashed into the temple, followed by a deafening thunderclap. It struck the Elder John. Everyone was stupefied for a second, and when the deafened Christians came to their senses, the Elder was seen lying dead on the floor.

The Emperor, pale but calm, addressed the assembly: "You have witnessed the judgment of God. I had no wish to take any man's life, but thus my Heavenly Father avenges his beloved son. It is finished. Who will oppose the will of the Most High? Secretaries, write this down: The Ecumenical Council of All Christians, after a foolish opponent of the Divine Majesty had been struck by fire from heaven, recognized unanimously the sovereign Emperor of Rome and all the Universe as its supreme leader and lord."

Suddenly a word, loud and distinct, passed through the temple: "Contradicatur!" Pope Peter II rose. His face flushed, his body trembling with indignation, he raised his staff in the direction of the Emperor. "Our only Lord," he cried, "is Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God! And who you are, you have heard just now. Away! You Cain, you murderer! Get you gone, you incarnation of the Devil! By the authority of Christ, I, the servant of the servants of God, cast you out forever, foul dog, from the city of God, and deliver you up to your father Satan! Anathema! Anathema! Anathema!"

While he was so speaking, the great magician was moving restlessly under his mantle. Louder than the last "Anathema!" the thunder rumbled, and the last Pope fell lifeless on the floor. "So die all my enemies by the arm of my Father!" cried the Emperor. "Pereant, pereant!" exclaimed the trembling princes of the Church.

The Emperor turned and, supported by the great magician and accompanied by all his crowd, slowly walked out the door at the back of the platform. There remained in the temple only the corpses and a little knot of Christians half-dead from fear. The only person who did not lose control over himself was Professor Pauli. The general horror seemed to have raised in him all the powers of his spirit. He even changed in appearance; his countenance became noble and inspired. With determined steps, he walked up onto the platform, took one of the seats previously occupied by some State official, and began to write on a sheet of paper.

When he had finished he rose and read in a loud voice: "To the glory of our only Savior, Jesus Christ! The Ecumenical Council of our Lord's churches, meeting in Jerusalem after our most blessed brother John, representative of Christianity in the East, had exposed the arch-deceiver and enemy of God to be the true Anti-Christ foretold in Scripture; and after our most blessed father, Peter, representative of Christianity in the West, had lawfully and justly expelled him forever from the Church of God; now, before these two witnesses of Christ, murdered for the truth, this Council resolves: To cease all communion with the excommunicated one and with his abominable assembly, and to go to the desert and wait there for the inevitable coming of our true Lord, Jesus Christ."

Enthusiasm seized the crowd, and loud exclamations could be heard on all sides. "Adveniat! Adveniat cito! Komm, Herr Jesu, komm! Come, Lord Jesus Christ!"

Professor Pauli wrote again and read: "Accepting unanimously this first and last deed of the last Ecumenical Council, we sign our names" -- and here he invited those present to do so. All hurried to the platform and signed their names. And last on the list stood in big Gothic characters the signature: "Duorum defunctorum testium locum tenes Ernst Pauli."

"Now let us go with our ark of the last covenant," he said, pointing to the two deceased. The corpses were put on stretchers. Slowly, singing Latin, German, and Church-Slavonic hymns, the Christians walked to the gate leading out from Haram-esh-Sheriff....

P.S. - I thought I should make note of one other thing, the doctrines of the faith are experienced in the divine liturgy, and not by reading Magisterial documents.

That the Petrine Primacy is a modern Latin theory hardly jibes with the writings of St Clement, St Ignatius of Antioch and St Irenaeus who all spoke of Rome's pre-eminence over the other churches before the 2nd Century.

Pope St Stephen I (254-257) (a Greek) maintained, according to the testimony of Bishop Firmilian of Caesarea, that he possesed "the succession of Peter, on which the foundations of the Church are errected". He threatened the Asia Minor bishops with exclusion from the church Commonwealth.

Pope St Victor I (189-198) threatened the Asia Minor communities with exclsuion from the Church on account of there adhering to the Quartodecimanic practice.

You can reject the claim of Petrine Primacy, but you cannot deny that's existed for over 1800 years.

It can and should be, both/and rather than either/or. But I appreciate your point and think Benedict XVI would too!

Todd,
I should point out that Byzantine theology has seen its own development over the centuries. e.g., Hesychasm and the definition of the distinction between God's essence and energies.
Vladimir Lossky perhaps was among a minority of Orthodox theologians who accept doctrinal development. Read what Fr. Aiden Nichols [christendom-awake.org] has to say.

Dogma is by no means a new Revelation. Dogma is only a witness. The whole meaning of dogmatic definition consists of testifying to unchanging truth, truth which was revealed and has been preserved from the beginning. Thus it is a total misunderstanding to speak of "the development of dogma." Dogmas do not develop; they are unchanging and inviolable, even in their external aspect � their wording. Least of all is it possible to change dogmatic language or terminology. As strange as it may appear, one can indeed say: dogmas arise, dogmas are established, but they do not develop. And once established, a dogma is perennial and already an immutable "rule of faith" ("regula fidei;" o kanon tis pisteos, ο κανων της πιστεως). Dogma is an intuitive truth, not a discursive axiom which is accessible to logical development. The whole meaning of dogma lies in the fact that it is expressed truth. Revelation discloses itself and is received in the silence of faith, in silent vision � this is the first and apophatic step of the knowledge of God. The entire fulness of truth is already contained in this apophatic vision, but truth must be expressed. Man, however, is called not only to be silent but also to speak, to communicate. The silentium mysticum does not exhaust the entire fulness of the religious vocation of man. There is also room for the expression of praise. In her dogmatic confession the Church expresses herself and proclaims the apophatic truth which she preserves. The quest for dogmatic definitions is therefore, above all, a quest for terms. Precisely because of this the doctrinal controversies were a dispute over terms. One had to find accurate and clear words which could describe and express the experience of the Church. One had to express that "spiritual Vision" which presents itself to the believing spirit in experience and contemplation. [Fr. Georges Florovsky, "Revelation, Philosophy and Theology," this article originally appeared as "Offenbarung, Philosophic und Theologie" in Zwischen den Zeiten, Heft 6 (M�nchen, 1931). Translated from the German by Richard Haugh]

This is one time where to assert the so-called Catholic both / and is ludicrous, and reveals that some Christians have lost touch with the Apostolic Tradition.

It is in worshipping the Triune God through the divine liturgy that man is put into direct and personal contact with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The same -- of course -- cannot be said about reading Magisterial documents (e.g., the Latin Church's CIC, or curial documents, etc.), because they do not render present the mystery of Christ.

God bless,
Todd

That said, when I read a Curial document (which I like to do), I do not transcend time and space, nor is Christ's Paschal Mystery objectively rendered present. I hope that you do not believe that Curial documents are mysteries (i.e., sacraments).

This is one time where to assert the so-called Catholic both / and is ludicrous, and reveals that some Christians have lost touch with the Apostolic Tradition.

It is in worshipping the Triune God through the divine liturgy that man is put into direct and personal contact with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The same -- of course -- cannot be said about reading Magisterial documents (e.g., the Latin Church's CIC, or curial documents, etc.), because they do not render present the mystery of Christ.

"What is the faith? [and] Can it be known?"