www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Please forgive - this has probably been asked....

I am trying to find out the answer to at least one basic question about the Ruthenian RDL - simply, why was it undertaken unilaterally rather than jointly with other Greek Catholics, or in conjunction with the Orthodox?

I am sure this has been answered elsewhere - I just have not seen it.

At the International Symposium on English Translations of Byzantine Liturgical Texts held in Stamford, CT, 17-20 June 1998, Fr. Daid Petras fielded the same question:

In short, it's down to the hierachs to co�perate.
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Oυτις ημιν φιλει ου φροντιδα | Nemo Nos Diliget Non Curamus

I wonder if this statement might be clarified. Did the Ukrainian, Melkite, and Romanian bishops (1) opt out of the revision process early on; (2) decide not to buy a pig in a poke once they saw what the revision might look like; or (3) not get invited to the party in the first place?

The quotation makes it sound like (3). Fr. David says that their presence would have slowed the process down, which implies that they were not in the picture from the start. But it would be interesting to know how their lack of participation came to be.

I'm not going to comment one way or another. Anything is possible. I try to be as trustworty and optomistic as I can. My wife says it's one of my faults--I trust people too much. There is one way to find out--ask Father Petras.

Before anyone joins in, please remember he has stated repeatedly on this Forum that he doesn't necessarily join in the discussions that much. It seems to cause more problems than it solves. But he has said that a private e-mail is a better way to go. And to be honest, I can attest to that. I posted questions to him on this site more than once and did not get a reply. In an open response to a post on this forum (I'm sorry, I don't remember which thread it was or what his exact words were) he said he does not ignore private e-mails. I did e-mail him privately and he responded to two different questions at diferent times. He is a busy man, so it might not be an immediate response, but why not try sending him an e-mail asking if the other parties involved were invited? What can it hurt? What do you lose?

I have read a lot about Father Petras on this forum and I get the impression that he has become a bit of a lightning rod for a whole lot of frustrations. In all Christian charity, don't you think we should give the guy a chance? We might not agree with his actions or agree with his responses, but let's at least try to fair to the guy!

Tim

"I wonder if this statement might be clarified. Did the Ukrainian, Melkite, and Romanian bishops ..."

The Melkite church is just about to finalise a revision of its liturgy in English for all Melkite eparchies worldwide. This is based on the recent revision of its fundamental Greek and Arabic liturgies (published 2006). The English revision is actually planned to complete around the middle of this year (2007).

Due to the difference between liturgies coming from the Russian tradition and those from the Greek, it is easier to gain agreement between the Melkite Church and the Antiochian and Greek Orthodox Churches.

I think it will be some time before the Greeks and Russians agree on all matters liturgical. After all, they still differ on the exact content of the Old Testament canon.

Christians have an obligation in justice and charity to be fair to everyone, always - and that certainly includes being fair to Father Archpriest David Petras.

Now, as to the earlier possibility of multiple jurisdictional involvement in producing England translations of the Divine Liturgy - out of many events which have occurred, I should like to mention these:

a) when it became known that the Eparchies of Pittsburgh and Passaic, at the time of Vatican II, were preparing what eventually became the 1964/65 "red book", the liturgical commission of the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of North Aemrica (which a few years later became the OCA) approached the Pittsburgh-Passaic commission with the proposal that the two bodies should work together and produce a common translation. Pittsburgh-Passaic refused.

b) The Oriental Congregation, sometime around 1980, sent Father John Long from Rome to the US, with the mission of speaking with all the Greek-Catholic hierarchs and liturgical commissions, encouraging them to cooperate and produce a common translation of the Divine Liturgy. There was immediate and unanimous agreement that the Greek-Catholics did not wish to do anything of the kind. Instead, every Greek-Catholic jurisdiction generously offered to allow the others to use "their" translation (I got this straight from Father John Long - who returned to Rome, thoroughly discouraged).

c) Sometime in the early nineties, the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in America, which has its own liturgical commission, embarked upon a project to produce a joint translation of the Divine Liturgy for Orthodox use. Sensibly, they proceeded on the plan of first making a scientifically accurate translation from the Greek into "modern American English" (an impossible concept to define, incidentally), and then elaborating three versions of that one translation: a version for Greeks, a version for Slavs, and a version for the Antiochians (I have copies of all three - unfortunately they are not dated). Like many good ideas, this one then stopped dead; nothing ever came of it.

And so it goes. Has anyone ever tried - successfully - to herd cats?

Fr. Serge

Actually, up until a few years ago, we had four cats in our house (I think they all went to Cat-Hell!). They were much easier to "herd" than these Greek Catholics!

Dn. Robert

John - I think the third. They were never invited in the first place, to my knowledge.

In the case of the Melkites and Ukrainians each had newer translations (Ukrainians 1988, Melkites more recent in Archbishop Raya's Liturgikon) that they are in the midst of implementing. In both cases these represent restorations back to the respective traditional Ordo and the possibility of fuller celebration of the Liturgy (fuller antiphons, additional litanies, etc.) rather than the current reduced "sole text" of the RDL. I think there is potentially also now a growing general bifurcation in liturgical approach between the Patriarchal churches and the Metropolia.

Although the Metropolia had yet to fully implement the Ordo and the 1965 Liturgikon with such force as with the RDL book itself being the "sole text" after all those years, they (at least the IELC) were in too much of a hurry to garner input and collaboration from sister Greek Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

Diak, thank you.

This is even more interesting than it first seemed. So the Byzantine Ruthenians, Ukrainians, and Melkites essentially ran parallel processes of revising their liturgies with (it appears) little communication among them.

According to Matta's report (above) the Melkites should issue theirs later this year. And it sounds as if the Ukrainian revision is in use already.

It would be very interesting indeed to compare the three translations line by line, and to compare any statements of principles issued beforehand.

All this just leaves me scratching my head (harder!) and thinking "What is the deal?"

Eastern Christians in general, and Byzantine Caths in particular are pretty well a dispersed and small group. Outside of the "Pierogi belt" where we are thick on the ground there are vast parts of the country where we have people without parishes. (For example, Ohio is home to THREE Greek Catholic bishops - Canton for Romanians, Parma for Ruthenians, and St. Josaphat or Parma for the Ukrainians, but there is NO Greek Catholic presence at all in Cincinatti - the city that until a few years ago was the second largest in the state. )

To have undertaken - unilaterally - a project of this size and expense without reference to the other Greek Catholics or Orthodox, no matter how u slice it, it all just kinda makes me sad.

Just curious, anyword on what the ACRGCOD will now be using... Ten years ago I visited three different of their parishes in P'burgh and they were using Archeparchy of P'burgh service books...

Simple

Someone used the analogy of herding cats recently...perhaps a good analogy after all.

It might be a bit of an insult to cats!

Eh, cats won't start websites, argue about "the old country", their true traditions, and reminisce about the glory days of yesteryear half as much.

Yes, but you haven't mentioned the most unique abiilty that Byzantine Catholics have been given. It's the ability to take aim at anything, yet still shoot themselves in the foot. It's a gift!

We should probably also get away from getting in a circle when we form a firing squad... That just never seems to work out very well for us.

I overheard my priest talking about it to another parishoner, he implied that we (the Ukrainians) weren't invited and went on to say that if we did have it - he would not implement it at our parish. ever.

I guess he still uses Cardinal Slipyj's English translation - I didn't know there was another, thats the only translation I have ever heard at the local Ukrainian parishes around here in southeast michigan.