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Is Our Lady of Guadalupe an authentic apparition of Theotokos or a legendary adaptation of the pagan goddess Tonantzin?

I would have to say it is an authentic apparition. Studies of the image of Mary reveal something that would have been virtually impossible to fake: an image of a kneeling man reflected in the eyes!

The Church has approved this apparition and, therefore, it seems to me that we can accept the apparition as real.

Fr. Deacon Ed

Of course no one is ever required to believe any apparition. I have heard some make the case that this particular apparition is authentic and that viewing the cloak proves it. I have also read that parts of the tilma are painted and not the result of anything supernatural. It seems that some people tend to believe in apparitions while others don't. The Church only makes a ruling that particular apparitions are either worthy of belief, or not worthy of belief. It never says that anyone has to believe in them. More often, the Church makes no determination either way.

I have heard some make the case that this particular apparition is authentic and that viewing the cloak proves it. I have also read that parts of the tilma are painted and not the result of anything supernatural.

Yes, PART of the tilma was painted by human hand, but that is known to have happened as a "touch-up" job AFTER the apparitions were approved. It is similar to taking a beautiful icon and then covering it with gold or silver to a poor human way of adorning it.
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You can be assured that the apparitions were approved; Why cast doubt and question the credence of upon the bishop and church authorities who investigated and approved it.

This "second guessing" suggests that the Church lives in the past, that its life died with Byzantium. Nothing is further from the truth. God is alive and will manifest Himself where and when He chooses, regardless of the "Doubting Thomases."

In one of Pope John Paul's last visits to the the Americas he officially proclaimed Our Lady of Guadalupe as "Patroness of the Americas. (That includes us). Because we are in union with Rome, December 12 is marked on our Liturgical calender "Our Lady of Guadalupe.
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Regarding some misinformation about Medjugorje on another thread where someone proclaimed the apparitions to be a fraud, the investigations have concluded neither that the apparitions are proven, nor that there is anything contrary to the faith. The controversary regarding some Franciscians predate the apparitions and are independent of Medjugorje.

Here is a quote from the official Medjugorje website,:


In the mid 90's or so there was an second investigation by the Croatian Bishops that did not come to a conclusion, except there was nothing contrary to the faith and priest may care for pilgrims (but not Church sponsored pilgrimages). If there has been a newer official investigation, please give the details.

I stand ready to accept the Church's position and agree that no one is bound to believe any apparition, should they choose not to.

Father Deacon Paul

Hi Tertulian,

If you search the Town Hall forum, you should be able to find my postings from a couple of years ago on the subject of Guadalupe.

After you read the accounts of the event itself and the consequences in the life of the Mexican nation, you should be able to judge for yourself.

Shalom,
Memo

Father Deacon Paul-
Here is a link to a homily given last year I believe by the bishop of the area.

http://te-deum.blogspot.com/2006/07/homily-of-bishop-ratko-peric-of.html

I have friends that are great believers in Medjugorje, but I must admit that what the bishop says gives me pause.

Andrea

My friend Allison is a big Medjugorje devotee, and her grandmother is constantly showing me all of these allegedly supernatural miracles. It gives me cause for pause.

I really don't know how to respond when she says visionary x said y, when it's rather foreign to my faith as an Eastern Christian.

I'd appreciate any suggestions.

When Med. is mentioned in my presence I smile and nod, but make no other comments. I've been shown pictures and I just say they are very nice. I've determined that if my friend ever asks what I think about it, I will say I'm waiting for the Church to make a determination before deciding. However I do have deep reservations about it.

Are "visionaries" generally an unknown phenomenon in Eastern Christianity?

Well there is only ONE FAITH - Christianity - and there have been some instances where the Theotokos has spoken to Eastern Christians in particular, The Gorgoypekoos "she who is quick to hear" comes to mind. Although the Gorgoypekoos Icon is my main Mary Icon, I only pray to the Holy Theotokos in the form of Gorgoypekoos when I'm having a really bad time like once at the hospital where I worked at there was a pretty big incident that was pretty much my fault - I prayed to her that night and I actually got a sign at Sunday afternoon mass the next day (I had to work in the morning so no DL) and by the end of the week I was off the hook.

http://marypray.org/Main/BYZANTINE.cfm

And remember Catholics are not required to believe in apparitions. I think that the apparitions are mainly messages for the Western Church - According to a documentary on EWTN the Virgin at Medjugorje said specifically she was appearing to inform the Western Church and the west in general to clean up her act.

The alleged apparitions of Our Lady of Soufanieh occurred/ continues to occur in the Middle East but focus on Our Lady's desire for the reunion between the East and the West.

The visionary is an Arab Greek Catholic married to an Arab Greek Orthodox. She also was marked with stigmata, purportedly only a "Western phenomenon!"

http://www.soufanieh.com/

Tertullian,


St. Juan Diego, to whom Our Lady appeared, was told by her to give a message to the Bishop, and he did just that. The Bishop is thought to be one of the persons "imprinted" in one of the retinas of the image.

So, the Bishop did eventually approve the apparitions, and there have been various subsequent ecclesiastical investigations, all of which ended up attesting the genuine nature of the apparition. The Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe has been celebrated in the Catholic Church for centuries now, on Dec. 12.

The image of Our Lady on the tilma is one which in many ways instructed the Indians that there was a Mother of God (the serra where she appeared was dedicated by the Indians to a "goddess" under that title), but that the God they associated with her was false. This led eventually to about 10 million conversions to the Catholic faith over about 10 years.

Of even more interest to us moderns, perhaps, is the fact that the tilma itself has survived since the time of the apparition, now about 470 years. It is made up of vegetable fiber, and normally by now would be reduced to dust. Scientists have verified in recent times that there has been no deterioration; and no human preservation.

In my view, it is a holy object, comparable to those icons in Europe and elsewhere whose writing is attributed to St. Luke, or to Our Lady herself.

Best,
Michael

Hello,


Pope John Paul The Great elevated the celebration to the rank of Feast for the entire American continent. It is the National Patronal Feast and therefore a Solemnity in Mexico.


That is simplifying things a little too much. The "original" account of the apparition is a narrative called "Nican Mopohua" and in it, Our Lady never claims that the Aztec gods were false.

The Aztecs were actually developing monotheism when all this happened. The current theology at the time was that there was One True God called Teotl and that the various gods of the Aztec pantheon were different manifestations of Teotl.

In the translations of the Nican Mopohua, there is usually an emphasis in the words of Our Lady identifying herself as "The Mother of the Very True God, the Giver of Life". However, what is usually translated as "the Giver of Life" is the Nahuatl word Ipalnemohuani, which is not only the name of one of the gods of the pantheon, but also the first of a list of names of gods Our Lady is claiming to be the Mother of. The Nahuatl text reads:

Maxicmatti, ma huel yuh ye in moyollo, noxocoyouh, ca nehuatl in nicenquizca cemicac Ichpochtli Sancta Maria, in Inantzin in huel nelli Teotl Dios, in Ipalnemohuani, in Teyocoyani, in Tloque Nahuaque, in Ilhuicahua, in Tlalticpaque.

Which should be translated as:

Please know, and put in your heart, my little son, the most beloved, that I am the perfect, Ever Virgin Saint Mary, and I have the privilege to be the Mother of the Very True God, of Ipalnemohuani (The Giver of Life), of Teyocoyani (The Creator of People), of Tloque Nahuaque (The Owner of what is near and what is far), of Ilhuicahua Tlaltipaque (The Lord of Heaven and Earth).

The list and the use of the actual names of the Aztec gods would look like a convalidation that the Aztecs were on the right theological path, which parallels the way St. Paul talked to the Greeks of Our Lord as the "Unknown god" of their own pantheon.

In general, the whole Nican Mopohua presents Christianity, not as a replacement for the Aztec religion, but as the true fulfilment of the Aztecs' thirst for spiritual life.

The Nican Mopohua suggest the mass conversion of the natives happened only when their own scribes examined the image and found it of divine origin. They understood their time had passed, that their mission was now given to the Christian bishop. They simply accepted the revelation and obeyed the message.


Not only no human preservation. The image now is framed and in air-tight glass, but for several decades, it was completly exposed and within the reach of the hands of the faithful, who rarely missed the chance to touch it.

The image also survived a bomb detonation during the time of the Cristero war. An iron crucifix, or what remains of it, that used to be right next to it can still be seen at the basilica.

Its survival to our days is indeed, remarkable.


Shalom,
Memo

Our Lady of Guadalupe is popular among Orthodox in areas where Catholics highly venerate her. I've seen UGCC parishes, even here in Toronto, with large copies of Our Lady of Guadalupe (i.e. Holy Eucharist parish in Toronto).

Alex

Memo,

Sorry about that post: I was responding from my memory, and before I read your excellent and beautiful repost of the original story with details about Aztec culture, education, etc.

Shalom,
Michael

Dear Michael,

No reason to be sorry. All of us are here to share our faith.

Shalom,
Memo