|
1 members (San Nicolas),
204
guests, and
60
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,467
Posts417,239
Members6,106
| |
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 |
Is Truth one? Or are there just many truths for this and that liturgical community? Christ Himself is the Truth, and -- as a consequence -- the Truth is a person, and not a series of abstract intellectual propositions learned by reading several volumes of Curial documents.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
Sadly, we are at an impasse, because I see no reason to accept the exaggerated claims of those who hold that Curial documents or Papal Encyclicals are sacraments, which objectively render present Christ's paschal mystery in the way that the liturgy does. Todd, I re-read both Im's and my posts. Neither of us are claiming that Curial documents and Papal Encylcicals are sacraments. The question of whether the magisterium is above the Liturgy is an interesting one. Clearly the texts and form of the Divine Liturgy are an extension of the Church's pastoring of the faithful, and there is a teaching or magisterial dimension to our worship. (I interpret "teaching" much more broadly than simply the transfer of information or knowledge. Rather I believe that teaching touches on all aspects of discipleship. It is an extension of Jesus's mission as "Rabboni" or "My Great Master".) But the Divine Liturgy flows from the divine life of the Holy Trinity and cannot simply be reduced to its texts and visible form, so in that sense the magisterium is the servant of Divine Liturgy. The nature of its service, however, is partly to maintain the integrity of the celebration of its ordo and to ensure the integrity of that common life that flows from and back to the worship of the assembly. In ICXC, Gordo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
Is Truth one? Or are there just many truths for this and that liturgical community? Christ Himself is the Truth, and -- as a consequence -- the Truth is a person, and not a series of abstract intellectual propositions learned by reading several volumes of Curial documents. Todd, Perhaps the issue is how you are approaching the reading of magisterial texts (as a series of abstract intellectual propositions) and not the texts themselves. When I read them, I tend to read these documents very prayerfully, as pastoral letters, and have even at times incorporated them into my "lectio divina" prayer time as "seeds" to ponder. Granted, the Code of Canon Law is not on my lectio divina reading list. There are some wonderful magisterial letters and documents from Orthodox hierarchs that are well worth reading, and the writings of hierarchs is a venerable tradition going back to the New Testament and the Church Fathers. In ICXC, Gordo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 |
Granted, the Code of Canon Law is not on my lectio divina reading list. I am glad to hear that.  There are some wonderful magisterial letters and documents from Orthodox hierarchs that are well worth reading, and the writings of hierarchs is a venerable tradition going back to the New Testament and the Church Fathers. There are many good books, written by wonderful authors (and here I am not referring to bureaucratic texts issued by the Curia), but they do not have the power of the divine liturgy. God bless, Todd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1 |
Oh, dear.
a) yes, Truth is One - the Lord Jesus Christ, to be precise.
b) yes, there are many truths (note the absence of an initial capital letter) and it is easily observed that often different communities within the communion of the Universal Church lay particular emphasis on particular truths - that's hardly surprising.
c) since Liturgy is a source of theology (gasp!! shock! - but that's how it is), the "magisterium" is not entirely above the Liturgy - it is not possible, to offer an extreme example, for the "magisterium" to forbid the use of bread and wine and impose the use of corn bread and Coca-Cola instead. Even Liturgies which are no longer in use retain their value as sources, and in fact are often quoted for just that purpose.
d) just how old is the term "magisterium"?
Fr. Serge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 936
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 936 |
I agree on all accounts. And certainly the present Holy Father is the servant of the Liturgy, truth and Truth.
I agree that the faith is deposited once and for all. Nonetheless, it is our understanding of that deposit which is ever deepening. Newman's account of this phenomena is rather accurate.
Magisterium? Well it's as old as Magister!
The Church herself is in a sense, sacrament, the mystical body of Christ--One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 63
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 63 |
Vatican II stated that individuals have a right to conscience in religious matters. If your conscience tells you that the Pope of Rome is first among equals, rather than supreme and infallible, can a person really be faulted on that?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 125 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 125 Likes: 1 |
If your conscience tells you that the Pope of Rome is first among equals, rather than supreme and infallible, can a person really be faulted on that? That�s what I think, too, as a Rc, but in spirit EC - if not "an orthodox in communion with the patriarch of Rome"! In Finland we have a bad situation: no more eastern rite priests. Well, there�s Ukrainian catholic church in Estonian capital Tallinn - just about 70 kms across the sea from Helsinki...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 571
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 571 |
Tertullian, Vatican II stated that individuals have a right to conscience in religious matters. If your conscience tells you that the Pope of Rome is first among equals, rather than supreme and infallible, can a person really be faulted on that? As an earlier post (quoting Card. Ratzinger regarding Card. Newman's thought) highlighted, the freedom of conscience of an individual is intimately related to the conscience's relationship with truth. Vatican II, [i]Dignitatis humanae[/i] [ ewtn.com], #1 says in part: First, the council professes its belief that God Himself has made known to mankind the way in which men are to serve Him, and thus be saved in Christ and come to blessedness. We believe that this one true religion subsists in the Catholic and Apostolic Church, to which the Lord Jesus committed the duty of spreading it abroad among all men. Thus He spoke to the Apostles: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined upon you" (Matt. 28: 19-20). On their part, all men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and His Church, and to embrace the truth they come to know, and to hold fast to it.
This Vatican Council likewise professes its belief that it is upon the human conscience that these obligations fall and exert their binding force. The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it makes its entrance into the mind at once quietly and with power.
Religious freedom, in turn, which men demand as necessary to fulfill their duty to worship God, has to do with immunity from coercion in civil society. Therefore it leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ.
Over and above all this, the council intends to develop the doctrine of recent popes on the inviolable rights of the human person and the constitutional order of society. So, an individual's freedom of conscience to practice what he believes is intimately connected with his duty to discover and live the truth as God lets him know it. Best, Michael
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,402 Likes: 37
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,402 Likes: 37 |
Dear friends,
Actually, the Rudder, the compilation of canons and laws of the Church of the first millennium IS on the required reading list of all Orthodox Christians (and all others too or should be).
The idea that Orthodoxy is somehow imprecise on matters theological/disciplinary or does not have a precise canon law is simply nonsense.
Reading the Rudder is a great way to bring clarity to one's theological, moral and spiritual understanding of Christianity.
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179 |
Some thoughts:
Fr Serge: I believe you may be mixing apples with oranges with the example you gave. I believe the pope and magesterium are truly authoritatively 'above' the liturgy, as it does fall into his domain of authority. I agree bread and wine must be used and the pope cannot contravene that, but that is an infallible sacramental norm belonging to the Deposit of Faith. The liturgy, in general terms, does not seem to belong to that. The magisterium seems to have full authority in what rites will or won't be practiced and what form of worship is licit within each rite.
By the way, in regards to something I think you recently mentioned regarding Fr. Pacwa, unleavened wafers, I believe, are used by Maronite Catholics, Armenian Catholics, and I believe to a degree, even Chaldean Catholics. While I accept and respect Byzantine tradition in this matter, I don't believe these other Eastern Catholic Churches are engaged in some horrific heresy.
Tertullian: I believe the Church has always said on this subject that while there is a right to freedom of conscience, it is a freedom meant to be exercised within a properly formed conscience and within the recognized duty to pursue, apprehend, and affirm the truth. Just like it doesn't mean that one can support legalized abortion, I'm fairly certain it also doesn't mean that one gets to pick and choose one's way around Church teaching, ecumenical councils, and canon law.
Orthodox Catholic: I can only imagine what the Pedallion says about Catholic sacraments. You'll have to excuse me if I don't put this work on my reading list. Actually, from my OCA Eastern Orthodox days, I do recall admonishments from the priests that one should not simply take the Rudder and start reading it indiscriminately without proper guidance, as all things in it, I was informed, are not all of equal standing or authority. Again, that is what I was told.
Best to all,
Robster
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 94
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 94 |
Robster,
The pope and the magesterium are 'above' nothing! They must cooperate with the completness of the catholic faith or they risk being outside of the catholic faith.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179 |
Theophilus,
The pope is the steward of the infallible Deposit of Faith and is subject to that. In that role, my understanding is, he has full, supreme power over the Church and exercises that Petrine authority as he sees fit. I believe that is outlined authoritatively in several ecumenical councils now, including the Second Vatican Council.
Aside from the infallible dogmatics of the Eucharist, it would appear he has full authority over liturgical worship. Not that that's any guarantee he will always use that power in the best ways always, as, I believe, has been learned in the Roman Latin church of the past 40 years.
Best,
Robster
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,402 Likes: 37
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,402 Likes: 37 |
Dear Robster,
It doesn't say anything about Catholic sacraments and the admonishments have to do with reading anything without proper contemporary guidance. There are canons there that no one would follow.
Unless, of course, you are like the priest we used to have who regularly excommunicated people in confession for breaking specific canons . . .
He left us to join the Orthodox Church. It is in my prayers!
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179 |
Alex,
My mistake, I had thought that the Pedallion/Rudder had incorporated the 1755 decrees ratified by Constantinople, Alexandria, and Jerusalem.
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
